Macabeo
Joined: Feb 13, 2011
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 Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 16:17 |
 
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Numerous threads proposing fixes to the rosters are opened from time to time, like this one - with awesome templates for the rosters. However, quite often I feel that most tweaks are thrown left and right, without justifying what they are fixing, and how.
Because of that, I'm curious to see what people think is "wrong" with the current rosters in terms of design, just identifying the issues without tying them to a particular (and personal) fix. Here is my point of view:
- Amazon: Dodge spam and common statline is gimmicky and bland, irrelevant positionals (Catcher in particular), powerful at low TV but weak at high TV, lopsided match ups.
- Chaos: Very powerful at high TV thanks to CPOMB, but other than that fine.
- Chaos Dwarves: Useless minotaur, much more than in any other team.
- Chaos Pact: GSMP access in the marauders.
- Dark Elves: Blitzers dominate the rest of the positionals (except maybe the witch at the beginning) thanks to having better stats, same skill access and Block. The Assassin is not viable at all.
- Dwarves: Expensive Deathroller? I also think the cost of the Runner and the Bliter are a bit odd -> the Runner is 10k too expensive and the Blitzer is 10k too cheap as per Galak's guidelines, why not make them 70k and 90k respectively? It doesn't matter much, though.
- Elves: A bit redundant with High Elves, other than that fine.
- Goblins: Lack of potential for progression, it's more competitive to retire players that didn't roll stats or doubles and play the inducements game. Secret weapons are very hard to skill up.
- Halflings: Lack of potential for progression, it's more competitive to retire players that didn't roll stats or doubles and play the inducements game.
- High Elves: Fine.
- Humans: Catchers are weak and inconsistent with the background. Some argue the Ogre is too expensive.
- Khemri: Blitz-ras and Throw-ras are overpriced. Decay on important players hampers the progression of the team too much, too.
- Lizardmen: Fine.
- Necromantic: Fine.
- Norse: Very weak at high TV, irrelevant Thrower.
- Nurgle: A more extreme version of Chaos (kind of bad at low TV, very good at high TV). Again, the problem comes from CPOMB, other than that fine.
- Ogres: Too few Ogres, and expensive. Expensive rerolls. The snots are fine, maybe their AV is too low.
- Orcs: Blitzers are too cheap.
- Skaven: Fine.
- Slann: Expensive Blitzers out of the box.
- Undead: Strong at low TV but not so competitive at high TV.
- Underworld: Weaker than what they are supposed to be at low TV, the advantage of M access doesn't kick in until later on.
- Vampires: Fine. Thralls are a bit weak, maybe.
- Wood Elves: Wardancers are very difficult to deal with at low TV, mainly because of out of the box Blodge + AG4. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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Aug 20, 2015 - 16:30 |
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Generally killstack is too strong. Most of the problems are a byproduct. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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Aug 20, 2015 - 16:52 |
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They're all fine. |
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 Nerf Ball 2014 |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Aug 20, 2015 - 17:37 |
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The one roster that really could do with some modification is Ogres. It is a tough game using them and for some reason they were made much worse in CRP. The combo of s1 snots who can't modify opponent dodge rolls, who don't have general access on normal, plus bonehead on expensive ogres who also don't have general access on normal so lack key skills, is nasty. Claw opponents obviously affected them too. Though I persevere. |
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Resarf
Joined: May 08, 2009
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Aug 20, 2015 - 17:56 |
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Regenerate on the snotlings! |
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garyt1
Joined: Mar 12, 2011
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Aug 20, 2015 - 18:00 |
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Definitely would be progress. That would at least reduce the amount of matches where you can't compete at all 2nd half, presuming no cost for that mutation. |
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“A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer.” |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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Aug 20, 2015 - 18:37 |
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Dwarves: Mass tackle gives their linemen too much bang for their buck to start. Maybe give the blitzers tackle by default instead? That would also make Dwarf vs. dodge less one-sided
Khemri: Decay makes them unplayable. The key to a good Khemri team *should* be the tomb guardians and having a solid group of 4. That is almost never possible due to Decay.
Undead: If ghouls had regenerate they would be more viable at high TV, but may not work with the theme
Ogres: Not enough Ogres. My Ogres avoid playing teams with Claw altogether. I am already at such a disadvantage, why bother making it even more lob-sided? I think 8 is the right number of Ogres that should be allowed on the roster.
It is silly how high TV is dominated by mass claw/mb/po. While I think those teams should be strong, they are too powerful right now and the main culprit is PO (in my opinion).
Rule related issues:
- Piling On is too powerful, it should be changed in someway to make it less effective
- Can only PO when you have more strength?
- PO can have some risk to the PO-er (e.g., Roll d6, on a 1, make an armor roll)
- A PO roll can only cause a KO not a cas?
- Can only PO Armor or only PO injury, etc.
- Claw is a little weird, it's strange how it has no effect against av 7 but somehow has effect vs av 9... Because clearly if you had low armor a claw would be even more effective! Regardless, it is too powerful vs high armor. I would say reduce armor by 2 to a minimum of 7 and THEN apply modifiers like +AV. Gives players with 10 av (e.g., treemen) protection and gives players who take +AV extra protection
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 18:50 |
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| footballolb16 wrote: |
Khemri: Decay makes them unplayable. The key to a good Khemri team *should* be the tomb guardians and having a solid group of 4. That is almost never possible due to Decay. |
Decay it's not a big deal, Clawpomb is.
Even without Decay losing a Guardian for the match (for a Badly Hurt or a simple KO) hurts a lot the team. Guardians are supposed to be solid pillars during defence and offence, Clawpomb forces them to hide behind Skeletons, this is what makes unplayable the team at high TV.
Moreover, Blitz-Ras and Thro-Ras should have Thick Skull, Blitz-Ras are overpriced.
| footballolb16 wrote: |
Ogres: Not enough Ogres. My Ogres avoid playing teams with Claw altogether. I am already at such a disadvantage, why bother making it even more lob-sided? I think 8 is the right number of Ogres that should be allowed on the roster. |
Ogres are overpriced, they should cost 120K and have either Goblins or Gnoblars 6/1/2/7.
Anyway, Clawpomb would be still a big issue for them at high TV. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Aug 20, 2015 - 18:53 |
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I think if Ghouls had regen, I'd hate any team with Ghouls 50% more. |
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albinv
Joined: Sep 15, 2012
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Aug 20, 2015 - 19:03 |
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Ogres could be made a bit more competitive.
Would be cool if zons were a bit less cheesy and more interesting.
Personally i find it a bit puzzling that Khemris, which are tier 2-3 (depends on how you look at it) came closer to win a major than the tier 1 Undead (as far as i know).
Nerfing them made zero sense to me. Instead of giving the mummies block again, or fooling around with the rather perfectly designed positionals id test to make the Undead Zombies 30k instead of 40k. Would also fit in perfectly fluff wise and add to their character.
But the only roster that would really need severe work are ogres.
Minor thing: CDs of course are cheesy as heck and will always stay cheesy while dwarfs should start with guard.
But that's so obvious, it needs no mentioning actually. |
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luxyluxo
Joined: Nov 26, 2012
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Aug 20, 2015 - 19:13 |
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In my opinion:
Ogres definitely need to be more competitive ( maybe introduce different types of Ogres as in Stunty and replace Snots with Gnobs, as more fluffy).
Everyone moans about CPOMB, listen to the people and depower it
Underworld could be a little more competitive
Add Bretonnian, Khorne etc to stay competitive with BB2 (coming out in Sept). |
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seanh1986
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
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Aug 20, 2015 - 20:05 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | footballolb16 wrote: |
Khemri: Decay makes them unplayable. The key to a good Khemri team *should* be the tomb guardians and having a solid group of 4. That is almost never possible due to Decay. |
Decay it's not a big deal, Clawpomb is.
Even without Decay losing a Guardian for the match (for a Badly Hurt or a simple KO) hurts a lot the team. Guardians are supposed to be solid pillars during defence and offence, Clawpomb forces them to hide behind Skeletons, this is what makes unplayable the team at high TV.
Moreover, Blitz-Ras and Thro-Ras should have Thick Skull, Blitz-Ras are overpriced.
| footballolb16 wrote: |
Ogres: Not enough Ogres. My Ogres avoid playing teams with Claw altogether. I am already at such a disadvantage, why bother making it even more lob-sided? I think 8 is the right number of Ogres that should be allowed on the roster. |
Ogres are overpriced, they should cost 120K and have either Goblins or Gnoblars 6/1/2/7.
Anyway, Clawpomb would be still a big issue for them at high TV. |
My argument about decay making Khemri unplayable was not in a particular match but in the long-run. Without MB, they are very slow developing and with Decay they do not last. It's just a terrible combination.
They went from a 3 MA MB mummy to a 4 MA no MB tomb guard. After one SP roll, you take MB and they are basically a +Ma mummy, which most people would agree is a good trade-off; however, the fact that they do not start with MB means skilling them takes way longer and they just die before you can really see the benefit of having skilled them because every casualty they suffer is magnified meaning they need to be retired and/or RIPed way more frequently.
Yes, Claw/MB/Po makes them even more fluffy but, either way, Decay makes Khemri unsustainable at high TV because you need to constantly be retraining new Tomb Guards. |
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Fabulander
Joined: Oct 11, 2014
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Aug 20, 2015 - 20:09 |
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Macabeo, I agree that the human catchers are a little underpowered (or maybe just a tad overprized), but why don't you think that they are consistent with the background? Both slann, orcs, wood elves and skaven have players of the same race whose S and A is different from the template, if that's what you meant. |
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Roland
Joined: May 12, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 20:09 |
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Also, regen+decay is very weird combo...
They fall apart and regen at the same time? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Aug 20, 2015 - 20:10 |
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