Squiglet
Joined: Aug 13, 2015
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 Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 14:46 |
 
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Hi, I couldn't see an existing thread in this subforum for this rule discussion (and I did a search for "bank rule" on the full forum set which returned around 950 posts, that I didn't look through all of) so if there is a better place for it I don't mind it being moved...
So one of the rules that seems to get a lot of discussion is the Bank Rule that was vetoed by JJ and replaced by the Petty Cash Rule. During the FUMBBL down time I decided to do a little thinking and analysis on all the pros and cons of these two rules and came up with a third option that seems to combine the strengths of both rule approaches.
Let me attempt to sum up the three approaches as I see them (that is Petty Cash from CRP, Bank Rule and my suggested alternative):
Petty Cash rule:
Only gold used to buy inducements counts as TV for inducements and SE
For:
Allows teams to save for expensive items without suffering the effects of inducements against their team
Simple to track team finances between games (one treasury not two different accounts)
Against:
Allows gold hoarding high AV teams to remain at high TV for long periods of time
Transferring in and out of petty cash for extra inducements is confusing
Bank rule:
Gold (minus the first 100k) counts as TV for inducements and spiralling expenses
Against:
May, or may not, disadvantage teams saving for high cost items such as RRs, big guys or expensive positionals as they will give opponents inducements for money in the bank (this is a subject of some debate it seems)
Goes against the sense that un-actualised value does not count towards TV (e.g. players missing next game have a ‘banked’ value but this is not included in the TV calculation because they are not actually taking part in the match, makes sense that the same principle should apply to gold)
Complicated to track between games
For:
Prevents teams with high TVs amassing a lot of gold due to treasury counting towards SE (teams with TV over 220 effectively limited to 100k bank amount)
No need for complicated transferring in and out of petty cash process
Suggested house rule:
Gold does not count as TV for inducements but all gold counts as TV for SE
(and process of buying inducements made more transparent by re-wording of current petty cash rule)
Against: (I’m sure you will tell me)
For:
Allows mid to low TV teams to save without any risk of suffering inducements
Only tracking one amount of gold – no split between treasury and bank
Teams at TV 220 or higher effectively limited to only a few 10k gold in treasury at any one time so preventing gold hoarding
Now the suggested rule chances (including a simplification to the petty cash approach) can be achieved by altering the following sections of the rules:
Pre-match sequence of play:
2. Purchase Inducements
Teams use a range of techniques to try and gain an advantage over their opponents, these include bribing the referee, enlisting a spell caster to blast pitch with spell and hiring famous star players to bolster the team’s roster. Such additions to the team are called inducements, a full list of all available inducements can be found on pages 69-70.
Both coaches may use any gold in their treasuries to purchase inducements for the match chosen from the lists on pages 69 and 70 (Note that certain special rules and limitations apply). The cost of these inducements is added to the team value of each team for the remainder of the match and post match sequence.
Purchased inducements only affect the match that is about to be played, all inducements purchased are lost at the end of the match and no inducement can ever become a permanent part of a team.
3. Calculate Additional Inducement Payment
Teams that are at a disadvantage are often given cash to buy additional inducements to help even the odds against stronger opponents. This additional payment is offered by the stadium owner to help convince a team to take part in the match against a superior opposition (and thus allowing the stadium owner to recoup his losses and more through ticket sales and merchandise)
To represent this, the coach whose team has the lowest TV, after both teams have purchased inducements as described above, is given an amount of gold equal to the differences between the total value of their team and that of their opponent’s team. This gold may only be used to buy additional inducements for this match; any gold that is not spent on inducements is lost and may not be added to the team’s treasury.
4. Purchase Additional Inducements
The coach of the team with the lowest value may now spend any gold from the additional inducement payment on purchasing inducements for the game. The cost of additional inducements is not added to the value of the team and does not affect spiralling expenses as described in the post match sequence.
Detailed descriptions of all available inducements can be found on pages 69 and 70. Note that limitations and special rules from the team list apply. As some coaches can take a very long time deciding which inducements to take, there is a four minute time limit on selecting inducements.
All inducements purchased are lost at the end of the match. No inducement can ever become part of your team.
Post-Match Sequence
2.3 Each coach must now pay for spiralling expenses (as described later) from the gold in their team treasury. Note: at this point the team will not yet have updated the team value from the value calculated in step 2 of the pre-match sequence (page 28 )
Spiralling Expenses
Successful teams can be worth a fortune as their players improve and the squad grows. However, as wages and other team expenses increase, a bigger proportion of the team’s winnings gets devoted to just paying the bills rather than being available for additional purchases. Furthermore, teams with significant savings often find their treasuries become depleted as back room staff, star players and their associated hangers on find increasingly ingenious ways of spending the team’s hard earned cash.
To represent this tendency of Blood Bowl teams to shed excess funds on such irrelevant things as stadium improvements, alternative playing surfaces or concession stands, teams may have to pay an additional spiralling expenses cost after each match.
To find out how much gold the team loses after a game add their team value for the match, as calculated at the end of step 2 of the pre-match sequence, to the total amount of gold in the team’s treasury after they have received their winning from the game and consult the table below. Deduct the amount of gold shown on the spiralling expense table from the team treasury. Spiralling expenses are deducted at the end of the match during step 3 of updating the team roster. Spiralling expenses may never reduce the team’s treasury to less than zero.
(Spiralling Expense Table)
So three questions -
Am I missing anything obvious that would render this approach fundamentally invalid?
Do you think this approach addresses the issues of both Petty Cash and Bank Rule?
How viable would it be to play tests on FUMBBL leagues (without extra coding, the petty cash would have to stay the same but that is only a re-wording to make the process more transparent and doesn't actually affect game mechanics, but the changes to SE might have to be implemented by hand, is this possible? Would it be too much work for a league manager to keep up with this constant tweeking of team treasuries? Could it be handled by the coaches who are play testing if they were all managers of the league?)
thanks for your thoughts |
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JimmyFantastic
Joined: Feb 06, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 14:49 |
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TLDR |
_________________
Pull down the veil - actively bad for the hobby! |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 14:58 |
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| JimmyFantastic wrote: | | TLDR |
What an arsey response! You just wrote a blog on the topic, and somebody spends some time breaking it down but you burn it just like that.
You really need to grow up.
To the OP, I'm very interested to see where this goes, with all the other rules that Cyanide have implemented. Am I right in saying that they've upped SE? If they haven't then it needs it. SE handicaps far too much, and prevents team building. SE and banking really need to work hand in hand.
That with their weird and probably wrong JM use is going to make this interesting. Certainly worth a look and it's not a cut and dry subject, no matter what the hardcore players think.
Also bank is now 150k, now 100k.
"Gold does not count as TV for inducements but all gold counts as TV for SE"
It means absolutely nothing. All it means is that a team with a large gold chest stops earning. Once they spend money, they earn again. Then stop, and start. The only effect this has is the actual amount of gold in the chest rather than affecting their ability to do anything.
There's no way teams should accrue so much gold and just sit on it, with 12 players. With the bank either they accept losing the money or bite the bullet and build a proper bloody team. We've seen that if you build a team properly (the balle2000 game played 2 days ago) then everything works well. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 15:17 |
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Squiglet
Joined: Aug 13, 2015
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 15:18 |
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@Jimmy apologies here is the short version:
Suggested house rule:
Gold does not count as TV for inducements but all gold counts as TV for SE
will this work? |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 15:25 |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 27, 2015 - 15:34 |
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| koadah wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: | | What an arsey response!. |
It's true though. If the post were shorter and snappier more people would be likely to actually read it.
Also. The people most likely to rant about this have already done so elsewhere. |
Yeah I can understand that many people would think like that. However the fact that JF just wrote a blog on the matter, expects people to read and respond to his blog but not read a larger break down...........is just typical of him. Personally I can't think of anything more condescending and hypocritical. |
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BillBrasky
Joined: Feb 15, 2005
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Sep 27, 2015 - 15:39 |
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Why are we always so critical of each other?
We have such blessed lives, and nothing better to do, I guess.
(Yes, this was rhetorical.) |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 27, 2015 - 15:41 |
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Bank 150k, higher SE, paper/scissors/stone concept, JM do not count towards TV for counting winnings, Winning games means something rather than treading water. Then we're getting somewhere.
OP: Your idea doesn't prevent sweetspotting or positional saving. As long as you can stay under the SE, the bank doesn't exist, which is the case for the box made super legends anyway. We really need to get out of this FUMBBL niche that's being made. The further we go on, the further FUMBBL moves away from the original game and the rest of the hobby. And simply FUMBBL cannot survive as a hobby on it's own.
The rest of the BB community is important, remember that. |
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Squiglet
Joined: Aug 13, 2015
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 16:04 |
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| harvestmouse wrote: |
I'm very interested to see where this goes, with all the other rules that Cyanide have implemented. Am I right in saying that they've upped SE?
Also bank is now 150k, now 100k.
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I don't play BB2 so can't answer these, and I assume you mean that Cyanide have bank at 150k. But as you say the level of bank and SE can be adjusted differently in different house rules. I'm more interested in if there is an alternative way that avoids some of the objections to having a bank at all.
| harvestmouse wrote: |
"Gold does not count as TV for inducements but all gold counts as TV for SE"
It means absolutely nothing. All it means is that a team with a large gold chest stops earning. Once they spend money, they earn again. Then stop, and start. The only effect this has is the actual amount of gold in the chest rather than affecting their ability to do anything.
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Depends - if you try some numbers out with the SE in CRP rules a 220TR team (which people seem to feel should be roughly the apex of the TR trajectory of a team) would tend to only be able to maintain 10-20k in gold, so can't buy any more and would eventually crash when they suffer a bad game and take a couple of key RIPs.
Teams around 175TR would be able to maintain a larger treasury of up to 250k so can save, buy, have their TV go up but as a result as they progress towards 220TV.
| harvestmouse wrote: |
There's no way teams should accrue so much gold and just sit on it, with 12 players. With the bank either they accept losing the money or bite the bullet and build a proper bloody team.
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agreed this is an aim, and it seems to me this does this just as well as bank for teams at high TV (as I understood the issue it was that small bashy squads with high TV can rack up large treasuries and avoid crashing and needing recovery phase of team development) - it doesn't prevent 12 player teams at lower TV but these would naturally drift upwards in TV as players gain skills unless the coach is engaging in heavy duty sweetspotting.
Or have I misunderstood the issue?
Edit- you answered that question in the time it took me think through my reply |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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Sep 27, 2015 - 16:19 |
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But they don't, as they sack players that accrue skills. So the sweetspotting teams continually sit well below SE and it has absolutely no effect on them what so ever. The coaches with the best records in blackbox, get no where near SE, it's far too random up there. Instead they sit well below that figure and control almost every aspect of their game so that they win nigh on 80%. Like a manta ray fishing for krill.
With bank, they at least cannot save money to replace their good players that get killed. In which case they spend a bit of time playing fairer matches.
The original idea of bank was 100k, however when this was refused by JJ it was revalued at a more reasonable 150k, this is what Cyanide is using. |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Sep 27, 2015 - 16:23 |
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I don't really care, since we're not implementing the Bank Rule on Fumbbl anyway.  |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 16:24 |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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Sep 27, 2015 - 16:27 |
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| koadah wrote: | | BillBrasky wrote: | Why are we always so critical of each other?
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Because sometimes it sounds as though people are trying to kill the division.  |
What division?  |
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Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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Garion
Joined: Aug 19, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 27, 2015 - 16:35 |
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This post by happygrue is 100% on the ball and exactly my experience playing with the rule too -
| Quote: |
I played PBeM over the NTBB site for a short while, and the single thing that I couldn't stand was the bank rule. I didn't agree with everything, but the bank rule (assuming it is similar, I haven't looked at BB2's version) just kills the long-term play of any team but the best few (or those that have very cheap players). How many games does it take before your team is well and truly shattered by a game where they lose 4 positionals? It doesn't really matter, that's how many games your team has before you have to ditch it!
I don't think petty cash is perfect, but the bank rule is a step backwards. At least, that's the opinion of this guy, who likes to play the lesser races. You know, the teams that are plenty challenging enough without having to endure the bank rule.
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Money isn't actually causing problems so leave it alone. |
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