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Poll
So... Loans: Yay or nay?
I like the idea
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Sure, but with some changes
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
No, let 'em suffer, it'll make 'em tuff
73%
 73%  [ 14 ]
Turkey
26%
 26%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 19


Gurbo



Joined: Sep 29, 2015

Post 22 Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 01:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I've joined recently, and fumbbl was my first experience with persistent BB teams, and I've noticed something.

Due to my craptastic luck at rolling earnings dice, the two teams I've played so far have gone trough the same situation. After one or two fun and bloody games, I find myself deep in the red, with over 30% of my team composed of journeymen, no money on the treasury, and having to ask around for a few recovery games where I have to tiptoe around any marginally dangerous situation and just make it to the end of the game to see if I can start to recover.

That's not really that fun, tho I agree that is an integral part of the team managing part of the game.

So, the idea is this:
A team with less than 11 players and under 100k on the treasury is elegible for a loan of up to 100k.
The loan has to be repaid in full, plus 10k per game played while you are still paying (this could be implemented as part of the spiralling expenses without adding a new post-game stat).
So this would mean that without accounting for FAME, a max 100k loan would take about 3 games to be paid off, making the interests 30k that were already deducted from the games.

It's not free money, it has a very visible drawback, it's limited to really poor and mangled teams.

What do you think? Is it too powerful? Too easily exploitable? Does it need a harsher interest rate? Is it just a dumb idea?
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 02:16 Reply with quote Back to top

I dislike it. JMs are the correct answer to teams in this position in my opinion. The only change I'd make is that teams forced to use JMs don't have the JM worth added to the TV for calculating match winnings. This would help teams recover more quickly in a lot of situations.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 02:56 Reply with quote Back to top

jm, yes

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 03:27 Reply with quote Back to top

So, your Zons. You retired a -ma linewoman, and a -av blitzer, that's 140k. Compare my League Zons at https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=811762 and note that I have money while you don't. Early injuries you can just hang on to, it's not the end of the world with young teams. You'd still have 12 players without those.


Your Lizards, well, three dead Saurus in your first 3 games is very unusual, but then you went and retired a niggled skink too! And you retired a good skink! And a -av, so 180k. And they have 170k in bank. Why do you still have journeymen? Get a bench already, being low on numbers just makes you suffer more casualties.

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 03:29 Reply with quote Back to top

HM, if the value of the JMs > treasury only. "Forced to use" is key to prevent abuse at high levels.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 03:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Yup, so it would work with a bank rule. However I'd also like to prevent current use of JMs, I'm in the minority I know, but I just don't like it.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 03:42 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
So, your Zons. You retired a -ma linewoman, and a -av blitzer, that's 140k. Compare my League Zons at https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=811762 and note that I have money while you don't. Early injuries you can just hang on to, it's not the end of the world with young teams. You'd still have 12 players without those.


Well I don't sack many players, and in league there maybe a case to do this, but even then....

In the competitive divisions, definitely not. Rebuild.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 04:32 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
So, your Zons. You retired a -ma linewoman, and a -av blitzer, that's 140k. Compare my League Zons at https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=811762 and note that I have money while you don't. Early injuries you can just hang on to, it's not the end of the world with young teams. You'd still have 12 players without those.


Your Lizards, well, three dead Saurus in your first 3 games is very unusual, but then you went and retired a niggled skink too! And you retired a good skink! And a -av, so 180k. And they have 170k in bank. Why do you still have journeymen? Get a bench already, being low on numbers just makes you suffer more casualties.



I would imagine he's done all of the above because 90% of the guides/hints for skills and injuries out there pretty much tell you "if your skink has not rolled a double/stat by his third skill, fire him" to reduce bloat on TV. The same goes for injuries etc.
Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 05:04 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
Yup, so it would work with a bank rule. However I'd also like to prevent current use of JMs, I'm in the minority I know, but I just don't like it.


Ah yes, that reminds me! When are you going to share what you don't actually like about it?

I never got an answer last time we walked down this road. Probably you just missed my question (more likely you ignored it) Very Happy

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Gurbo



Joined: Sep 29, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 05:07 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
tussock wrote:
So, your Zons. You retired a -ma linewoman, and a -av blitzer, that's 140k. Compare my League Zons at https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=811762 and note that I have money while you don't. Early injuries you can just hang on to, it's not the end of the world with young teams. You'd still have 12 players without those.


Your Lizards, well, three dead Saurus in your first 3 games is very unusual, but then you went and retired a niggled skink too! And you retired a good skink! And a -av, so 180k. And they have 170k in bank. Why do you still have journeymen? Get a bench already, being low on numbers just makes you suffer more casualties.



I would imagine he's done all of the above because 90% of the guides/hints for skills and injuries out there pretty much tell you "if your skink has not rolled a double/stat by his third skill, fire him" to reduce bloat on TV. The same goes for injuries etc.


Yup, the last skink was retired in my last game, I'd rather have an extra bloodweiser babe or the opponent with one less. I get that all normals up to third skillup isn't bad per se, but they screw up the skill planing.
The niggled one... I think I retired out of frustration, I did regret it later when I realized most of my team couldn't use rerolls Razz

Even if early injuries can be kept in the team, I'd rather not give any more spp to a zon with a 21/36 chance to get an injury roll each block. I might have to change that mindset to improve my early team building, as I said, I'm pretty new to persistent teams.

Anyway, I've noted all the ways why this is not necessary, but I liked the idea of only being available if Journeyman value is bigger than the treasury, tho I also see ways to exploit that (with journeymen subbing in for MNGs, for example).
Maybe it's best to leave it as it is, suffer a bit and learn Smile
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 06:19 Reply with quote Back to top

@Arresteddevelopment, someone should edit the guides to point out that Side Step, Sure Feet, Sprint, and Catch on a Skink makes them a near-unstoppable 1ttd machine, with all those fast ST 4's to give them the starting pushes.

Or that Jump Up on your SS/DT players is fine, or that it doesn't hurt to have all that on one player for 6 AG skills.

SideStep/DivingTackle/SureFeet/Sprint/Catch/JumpUp. A perfectly cromulent legend Skink, and if they get doubles or a stat at Star, Super-Star, or Legend they work just as well as in the first 3.

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Sure, injured players need sacked at some point, once you've got enough money to have some left over afterward and already have their key skills covered elsewhere. Or just if it's spoiling your fun, of course. But nothing wins games like having a bigger TV than all your opponents, so getting up over 2000 quickly should be your first priority in a closed League.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 09:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm sorry I don't agree with your philosophy, not with TV. Don't get me wrong, it's a great philosophy and I wished everybody adhered to it. However, it's not the best for team management or winning.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 09:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Mr_Foulscumm wrote:
harvestmouse wrote:
Yup, so it would work with a bank rule. However I'd also like to prevent current use of JMs, I'm in the minority I know, but I just don't like it.


Ah yes, that reminds me! When are you going to share what you don't actually like about it?

I never got an answer last time we walked down this road. Probably you just missed my question (more likely you ignored it) Very Happy


I've gone over it several times, if you missed it then.....that's not my fault. I know you won't agree and post a 'I don't get it' or something similar like you usually do, so not worth it from my end. I have nostrils to tweezer that's equally painful but has a better outcome.
Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 10:35 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think it really helps in the way you want it to. All it does is bury a team deeper in the hole really losing more money medium term and if you get perms/deaths in the meantime (which is very likely if you are playing a race money can be an issue because of injuries) you are well and truly screwed.
Fortis



Joined: Mar 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 12, 2015 - 10:44 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem with 3 skill skinks is that they aren't much better than rookie skinks. Yes a +MV one would be great with normals to one turn and the builds you've suggested are ok, but they aren't worth 100+tv
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