FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

AlexHolker

Joined: Dec 02, 2015

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 03:44

I'm of the opinion that every team should be a tier 1 team in the hands of a competent coach, which in the case of Blood Bowl mainly means I believe that Goblins, Halflings and Ogres should be capable of competing on an even playing field with everyone else. The difference should be how each team reaches that level of competence.

With that in mind, I'd like to see Halflings get a few Halfling-themed positionals that might help them compete without resorting to the usual Thrower/Catcher/Blitzer plays.

The Daredevil: The treebuchet play is an iconic part of the Halfling playbook, and the Daredevil is intended as a specialist in that role, to the extent that this is supported by the rules. There is no mutation that buffs only the Right Stuff skill, so I went with a flat +1 Ag.

The Pickpocket: Ever since The Hobbit, Halflings and thievery have gone together like peanut butter and jelly. Hence the Pickpocket, a Halfling who knows how to take things from people who would rather not give them up, and how to feign innocence when they show up wanting their stuff back.

Variant 1: Not all Halflings have Dodge/Right Stuff

Code:

0-16 Halflings 30,000 5 2 3 6 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty A GSP
0-2 Daredevils 50,000 5 2 4 6 Right Stuff, Stunty A GSP
0-1 Pickpocket 60,000 5 2 3 6 Dodge, Dump-Off, Strip Ball, AP GS
Stunty
0-2 Treemen 120,000 2 6 1 10 Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Strong S GAP
Arm, Take Root, Thick Skull,
Throw Team-Mate
0-8 Rerolls 60,000

Variant 2: All Halflings have Dodge/Right Stuff

Code:

0-16 Halflings 30,000 5 2 3 6 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty A GSP
0-1 Pickpocket 50,000 5 2 3 6 Dodge, Right Stuff, Strip Ball, AP GS
Stunty
0-2 Daredevils 70,000 5 2 4 6 Dodge, Right Stuff, Stunty A GSP
0-2 Treemen 120,000 2 6 1 10 Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Strong S GAP
Arm, Take Root, Thick Skull,
Throw Team-Mate
0-8 Rerolls 60,000

Edit: And yes, I have looked at Quatergames' Halfling team variants. This is meant as a replacement for the one in the official rules, rather than specialising in one aspect of Halflingdom or another.

pythrr

Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 04:23

are you arguing that we should replace flings with these?

yeah but no but.

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harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 04:29

Well the pickpocket we made here, I like the fluff behind it.

I'm not sure about daredevils, Right Stuff=Daredevil basically.

I'm also not sure it's meeting your objective. That is to make them tier one. Basically what you are doing is making it a bit more of a one shot wonder with the better landing roll on a TTM.

So I don't think your roster would be able to compete any better than it would with inducements. Unless you pin everything on TTMing with the slightly better landing roll, which still doesn't improves the odds massively.

Oh and halflings without dodge..........yikes on that. Gnomes in stunty without dodge died badly. Halflings..........

Last edited by harvestmouse on %b %02, %2015 - %04:%Dec; edited 1 time in total

Uedder

Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 04:30

AlexHolker wrote:

I'm of the opinion that every team should be a tier 1 team in the hands of a competent coach, which in the case of Blood Bowl mainly means I believe that Goblins, Halflings and Ogres should be capable of competing on an even playing field with everyone else.

That's just wrong. Some teams are meant to be handicap and that's why they're fun to play!

Competitive halflings? There's Stunty Leeg for that. Check out the pro flings team, it's similar to yours.

And yeah flings as they are will be competitive in the hands of a skilled coach.

D_Arquebus

Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 04:37

I am never a fan of making 1 Turn TD easier. It lacks both player participation and as mentioned above leaves them a 1 trick pony.

I'd prefer to see them get some advantage that allows them to almost compete in the actually normal play of BB.

1) I would like the option to buy a full priced (300k) Chef onto the roster (similar to Goblins would get (100k) Bribes if they wanted. Or retain the ability to hire a cheaper one just as an inducement.

2) Move Wrestle into AG skills. That has much further reaching consequences then just flings, but would give a boost to all Stunties I feel as a defense as well as a ball spiller skill and still allow Elves their anti Block. Other teams could use their Doubles on it.

Cheers Smile

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harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 04:40

Wrestle in to Agility rolls...................now that is interesting. I'd like to think about that one for a while.

tussock

Joined: May 29, 2011

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 04:49

I play a fair bit of Flings. Nothing you've done would make them tier 1. They need some general access players with a useful starting skill to build dauntless wracklers in reasonable time, everything else means they can't turn over the ball and thus cannot win a fair amount against even tier 2 teams no matter how reliably they can throw someone. Strippers only really work against Lizards and another teams that lack general access, like Flings.

You've got to remember they finish games with 2 trees and 3 flings on the pitch on a good day, and a bad day is your opponent gang fouling a lone tree by turn 5 of the 2nd half. If they can't reliably turn the ball over early in the game, with the aid of TTM and kick positioning to counter their speed deficit, they can't even hold on for a tie.

1: you need a pair of players to start with kick, and 2: you need something like a dauntless blitzer that doesn't need to waste a pick on dirty player.

Code:

0-16 Halflings 30k 5 2 3 6 DRS A, GSP.
0-4 Sherrifs 50k 5 2 3 6 DRS, Dauntless. GA, SP.
0-2 Booters 60k 4 2 3 6 DRS, Kick, Dirty Player A, GSP.
0-2 Treeman 120k 2 6 1 10 tree stuff S, GAP.

0-8 Rerolls 60k

How you take them from that to a tier one team, without destroying the feel of the team: painfully slow, very vulnerable, scary trees protecting them, and dead keen on gang fouls, is anyone's guess. General access on the trees would be a big help, as they're just massively better with Block, but you can't really have that and an AG 4 flyer type (who will produce plentiful AG 5 fliers).

keggiemckill

Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 05:14

I am winning in my TT league with Flings using creative inducements. They aren't as bad as you would think if used properly.They never will be a contender, but they are crazy fun. 2 wins, 5 losses, 1 Tie after 8 games.

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AlexHolker

Joined: Dec 02, 2015

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 05:29

@Harvestmouse, D_Arquebus:
You have a good point about the Daredevil and not wanting to encourage uninteractive 1 turn TDs. Thanks for responding.

@Uedder:
I always have been opposed to that argument, and always will be. The rules should not be designed to be unbalanced, because you don't need anyone else's help if you want your team to suck. The hard part, the useful part, is creating a somewhat balanced game that can be played as is, or be used as a starting point if you want to play with one hand tied behind your back.

Drrek

Joined: Jul 23, 2012

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 06:09

I mean you can oppose the argument all you want, Blood Bowl was pretty clearly a game designed with the exact intention of having a few jokey not competitive teams like flings.

MisterFurious

Joined: Aug 11, 2010

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 06:46

AlexHolker wrote:

@Harvestmouse, D_Arquebus:
You have a good point about the Daredevil and not wanting to encourage uninteractive 1 turn TDs. Thanks for responding.

@Uedder:
I always have been opposed to that argument, and always will be. The rules should not be designed to be unbalanced, because you don't need anyone else's help if you want your team to suck. The hard part, the useful part, is creating a somewhat balanced game that can be played as is, or be used as a starting point if you want to play with one hand tied behind your back.

Why? The people that designed the game wanted to make some teams purposely bad to be a challenge for skilled coaches. What's wrong with that? It's their game and they can design it however they want. Their opinion on the matter is more important than yours. It's clearly stated in the rules that those teams are meant to be challenging and more for fun than for winning. I fail to see why people can't grasp that concept.

harvestmouse

Joined: May 13, 2007

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 06:54

Well you know...........what's the objective?

Supply a set of rules of all tier one teams; fine

Change the official rules that all are tier one; no chance at all in that.

Though you may convince Cyanide to go NTBB.

mrt1212

Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 06:59

I don't get why everything has to be 'balanced'. Challenges are what make games worth playing.

tussock

Joined: May 29, 2011

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 07:11

The design spec for flings/goblins/ogres was that they'd have a win rate of around 30%, and they don't. The wins rates here start under that and mostly get worse as they develop, setting around 15%, or as low as 10% for Ogres thanks to the uniquely overpriced players.

Yeh, you can get lucky and win a good few with some lucky dice on player development, because one in a million flings turns into Calkin Sproutman. Meanwhile, almost all the Fling teams are much worse than they're supposed to be, even as a challenge team, just as 2200 TV Nurgs or any Amazon team that's not dead yet are much better than intended.

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Bazakastine

Joined: Mar 21, 2014

Posted: Dec 02, 2015 - 07:35

tussock wrote:

The design spec for flings/goblins/ogres was that they'd have a win rate of around 30%, and they don't. The wins rates here start under that and mostly get worse as they develop, setting around 15%, or as low as 10% for Ogres thanks to the uniquely overpriced players.

Yeh, you can get lucky and win a good few with some lucky dice on player development, because one in a million flings turns into Calkin Sproutman. Meanwhile, almost all the Fling teams are much worse than they're supposed to be, even as a challenge team, just as 2200 TV Nurgs or any Amazon team that's not dead yet are much better than intended.

Have a look at this. http://www.cmanu.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/bb/stats/stats2.html

In Box all 3 races have a winning % around 28%. A little low but not too far off of 30% especially considering the lack of control over inducements.

In ranked Halflings are at 37%, Goblins 31% and Ogres 28% which seems right in line with expectations.