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Jamerson



Joined: Jul 22, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 21:24 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Jamerson wrote:
I looked at one of the absent coaches records - https://fumbbl.com/~cosius (2/1/3 - gone 18 weeks) to see who he/she had played.

The opponents were as followed:
141 games (Superstar)
712 games (Legend/Superstar)
477 games (Star/Superstar)
369 games (Rookie/Veteran)
25 games (star/emerging star but also another one absent for 12 weeks themselves with a 9/5/11 record)
135 games (Rookie/Experienced)

It strikes me that a newcomer such as cosius shouldn't have been playing any of these matches (apart from the opponent with 25 games) as they are all too experienced and used to FUMBBL. I am not criticising those players - they have done nothing wrong (I've probably done it myself)- but I don't think those sort of match ups are helping retain new players.


Absent an environment that is specifically set up to tutor and nurture a love of BB, coaches who play Box and Ranked can't get out of the way of their down dick stroking to even offer up a softball game and take an additional 30-40 minutes to guide a new coach into the light. I don't fault coaches for not being cognizant of how their actions influence other people and their expectations but honestly, at this point in time, if you aren't aware or don't even care, you're being counterproductive to the long term health of Fumbbl.

I think you've inspired me Jamerson - I will start playing my ranked teams strictly for the purposes of trolling Ranked players in tourneys AND for the benefit of rookies who would like guidance on the basics. Gotta work on the bio.

In fact if some erstwhile Ranked coach wants to write up a good one page info sheet on finding the best matches for rookies as a rookie that'd be awesome. I'd do it but I'd be too salty.


Haha Smile I am pleased I have got you thinking on this one!

Overall, I am thinking the following.

ALL new players can only initially create teams in an 'academy' league.

Established FUMBBL players (Legends, 1000+ games players etc can only have 'training' teams in the academy - halflings, gobbos, linemen only teams etc to walk the newbies through the games, coaching them etc - ). Maybe these vets could be rewarded with potions etc for their efforts?

Newbies therefore get to try various different races to see what suits them best etc in an environment where it is unlikely they will be continually thumped 4-0 or have their teams massacred.

Academy games are not counted on ANY player record (so those experienced coaching players who value their W/D/L record wont have to worry about losing with weaker, training teams and will discourage anyone from trying to buff their record with 'easy' wins)

After a set amount of games (doesn't necessarily have to be many), newbies are then allowed to create Ranked/League/Stunty/Box teams if they wish and enter into the normal FUMBBL environment (With strong recommendations to start with the 145 club). However, they can if they wish, stay in the Academy for longer for more training.

Just some thoughts on this. The main crux though is that newbies CANNOT just jump straight into R/L/B as soon as they join FUMBBL.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 21:28 Reply with quote Back to top

There is, on occasion, no winning.

I don't think it's any great shock we've a high rate of not retaining coaches after a few games, that's not unusual. If you look at the (for example) PlayStation trophies of games you're playing on that system, the number of players not hitting even the lowest hanging fruit in terms of achievements is always surprising. People pick up a thing, try it, and then go to a newer, shinier thing. BB is even worse with the luck element; it doesn't take much of a bad game (or a perceived bad game) to put off a newbie or makes a tabletop guy quickly come to the incorrect conclusion that the online rng hates him / is broken / yawn.

I'd not always blame experienced coaches for taking those games. In these days of lower traffic, if there is one other coach on gamefinder and he ticks your box, you'd be an idiot to not take the game. Would you rather not play at all? There are exceptions, the new coach, zero RR Vampire team, for instance, but in general, take what you can get. The important thing is that you're entering into the social contract of spending an hour with a new coach, and it is part of that contract (in my opinion) that you make him feel welcome and help him. The view that coaches should not be accepting games is false; coaches should be taking on a wide selection of games including playing newer players. I've been drawn in BlackBox rounds that I'd be embarrassed to take in R (indeed, the last time I took a mean CR of my last 30 R and B opponents, R was higher). You only get better by playing better opponents, afterall.

All that said, we shouldn't get complacent. Stuff like the 145 club and threads like these remind us we could always do more. And we can. All I'm saying is that we're sometimes too quick to criticise ourselves. We don't have too much BB to go around these days. Spreading it even more thinly by diluting the pool of coaches we can face isn't going to help.


Last edited by Purplegoo on Sep 08, 2016 - 21:31; edited 1 time in total
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 21:31 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:
I have a Ranked team that's specifically designed to play new teams, and so it draws a lot of noob coaches (probably one per 4-5 games). When I run across one, I'm always sure to give them some pointers after the game and refer them to the Faculty and 145 Club. But I think coaches at all levels of skill should make a point of playing against coaches at all levels of skill.


In time absolutely. I dont think theres any good achieved in playing Legend coaches who are fully invested in winning the game ahead of everything else by every means at their disposal. Itd be like a pop warner team playing a 60 minute game against an NFL team where the NFL team treats it like the Super Bowl. What lessons can you take away as a 10 year old from the experience of getting your face ripped off by the Seahawks?


I think we are aggregately ungenerous on the timelines it takes to grasp the game and be competent at the game. For some it might take 100 games, others 2000. Helping coaches identify their weak spots and giving them positive feedback for their gains in aptitude is essential.

Experience in itself isnt enough to grow, you need a concious investment of thinking and evaluation to reap the fruit of experience.
Jamerson



Joined: Jul 22, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 21:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
There is, on occasion, no winning.

I don't think it's any great shock we've a high rate of not retaining coaches after a few games, that's not unusual. If you look at the (for example) PlayStation trophies of games you're playing on that system, the number of players not hitting even the lowest hanging fruit in terms of achievements is always surprising. People pick up a thing, try it, and then go to a newer, shinier thing. BB is even worse with the luck element; it doesn't take much of a bad game (or a perceived bad game) to put off a newbie or makes a tabletop guy quickly come to the incorrect conclusion that the online rng hates him / is broken / yawn.

I'd not always blame experienced coaches for taking those games. In these days of lower traffic, if there is one other coach on gamefinder and he ticks your box, you'd be an idiot to not take the game. Would you rather not play at all? There are exceptions, the new coach, zero RR Vampire team, for instance, but in general, take what you can get. The important thing is that you're entering into the social contract of spending an hour with a new coach, and it is part of that contract (in my opinion) that you make him feel welcome and help him. The view that coaches should not be accepting games is false; coaches should be taking on a wide selection of games including playing newer players. I've been drawn in BlackBox rounds that I'd be embarrassed to take in R (indeed, the last time I took a mean CR of my last 30 R and B opponents, R was higher). You only get better by playing better opponents, afterall.

All that said, we shouldn't get complacent. Stuff like the 145 club and threads like these remind us we could always do more. And we can. All I'm saying is that we're sometimes too quick to criticise ourselves. We don't have too much BB to go around these days. Spreading it even more thinly by diluting the pool of coaches we can face isn't going to help.


I hear what you are saying. What I am suggesting would hopefully increase traffic and therefore by default, reduce the liklelihood of mismatches and give coaches more choices of opponents. Because you are right - given the choice of playing an outgunned opponent or no match at all - you would take the match (I know I have - on the rare occasion I have faced someone I can credibly claim to 'outgun' - taken said matches:)

And it is precisely because BB can be so unforgiving (due to the luck element) that I think nursing those newbies along for a few matches - to at least almost guarantee they get a chance to dish out the SI's and BH's and score a few TD's in the academy, means (hopefully) that when they end up on the recieving end in a ranked match, they remember it isn't ALL one sided and can get through it without giving up Smile

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Jamerson



Joined: Jul 22, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 21:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
People pick up a thing, try it, and then go to a newer, shinier thing. BB is even worse with the luck element; it doesn't take much of a bad game (or a perceived bad game) to put off a newbie or makes a tabletop guy quickly come to the incorrect conclusion that the online rng hates him / is broken / yawn.


But this is Bloodbowl. Most new coaches joining FUMMBL would have played it before (as opposed to simply stumbled upon the FUMBBL website and thought "That looks fun - I'll have a go"), be aware of the luck element etc, know how enjoyable and frustrating in equal measures it can be and yet we STILL keep hemorrhaging new players. I would say (from what I have seen so far) about 80% of the new players who posted on the welcome thread have disappeared. Bear in mind, they all posted positive messages, expressed enjoyment of the game or generally seemed to be enjoying themselves. Then nothing. Nada. Gone.

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"If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by."

I am a fixer. And my services are valued.

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Jip



Joined: Apr 25, 2016

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Rbthma wrote:
I usually get matches vs. rookies in Ranked with my all-rotters and will mention the 145 Club in match. It's usually a fun match with chances on both sides, and sometimes I feel like the one cherry picked. On occasion there are coaches who get upset at every dice roll - there's not a lot you can do about that.


I take back everything joyful I said about 145; look what Rbthma and his rotters did to me in the first two turns of this game, ha! Laughing

https://fumbbl.com/ffblive.jnlp?replay=888359

Fun game though, cheers dude.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 22:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Jamerson wrote:
Purplegoo wrote:
People pick up a thing, try it, and then go to a newer, shinier thing. BB is even worse with the luck element; it doesn't take much of a bad game (or a perceived bad game) to put off a newbie or makes a tabletop guy quickly come to the incorrect conclusion that the online rng hates him / is broken / yawn.


But this is Bloodbowl. Most new coaches joining FUMMBL would have played it before (as opposed to simply stumbled upon the FUMBBL website and thought "That looks fun - I'll have a go"), be aware of the luck element etc, know how enjoyable and frustrating in equal measures it can be and yet we STILL keep hemorrhaging new players. I would say (from what I have seen so far) about 80% of the new players who posted on the welcome thread have disappeared. Bear in mind, they all posted positive messages, expressed enjoyment of the game or generally seemed to be enjoying themselves. Then nothing. Nada. Gone.


What makes you think 80 % is a lot?

I'm not being deliberately difficult, but I expect the majority of newcomers to dip in and then leave. Don't you? Regardless of background?

Again; we can always do more / better. But I don't think these numbers are surprising, considering they're back of a fag packet.
Jamerson



Joined: Jul 22, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 22:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
Jamerson wrote:
Purplegoo wrote:
People pick up a thing, try it, and then go to a newer, shinier thing. BB is even worse with the luck element; it doesn't take much of a bad game (or a perceived bad game) to put off a newbie or makes a tabletop guy quickly come to the incorrect conclusion that the online rng hates him / is broken / yawn.


But this is Bloodbowl. Most new coaches joining FUMMBL would have played it before (as opposed to simply stumbled upon the FUMBBL website and thought "That looks fun - I'll have a go"), be aware of the luck element etc, know how enjoyable and frustrating in equal measures it can be and yet we STILL keep hemorrhaging new players. I would say (from what I have seen so far) about 80% of the new players who posted on the welcome thread have disappeared. Bear in mind, they all posted positive messages, expressed enjoyment of the game or generally seemed to be enjoying themselves. Then nothing. Nada. Gone.


What makes you think 80 % is a lot?

I'm not being deliberately difficult, but I expect the majority of newcomers to dip in and then leave. Don't you? Regardless of background?

Again; we can always do more / better. But I don't think these numbers are surprising, considering they're back of a fag packet.


I think it's high given that the majority of people who find their way to FUMBBL are probably already interested/fans of Bloodbowl.

If it were more random people then I would not think 80% particularly high.

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I am a fixer. And my services are valued.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 22:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, I'm not going to stop you trying to make things better. Smile

My first proper game was on FUMBBL. Always glad to be a minority. Wink
Jamerson



Joined: Jul 22, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 22:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
Well, I'm not going to stop you trying to make things better. Smile

My first proper game was on FUMBBL. Always glad to be a minority. Wink


Well I think we would all like to see more people stick with the game Smile I reckon (and hope) that my Academy idea has legs - we shall see?

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Jamerson



Joined: Jul 22, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 22:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Jip wrote:
Rbthma wrote:
I usually get matches vs. rookies in Ranked with my all-rotters and will mention the 145 Club in match. It's usually a fun match with chances on both sides, and sometimes I feel like the one cherry picked. On occasion there are coaches who get upset at every dice roll - there's not a lot you can do about that.


I take back everything joyful I said about 145; look what Rbthma and his rotters did to me in the first two turns of this game, ha! Laughing

https://fumbbl.com/ffblive.jnlp?replay=888359

Fun game though, cheers dude.


That was brutal.... Smile

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Sep 08, 2016 - 23:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Well, the 145 club is trying to expand and evolve a bit, I won't go into detail here should Throweck wish to talk about it, but I think I can say that it is planned to make it a much more encompassing experience and give a foothold in several different aspect of play on FUMBBL - from the open league (which mimics a perpetual style division in some ways, but leaves a lot to be desired in others), to sheduled leagues and other formats used on the site. There are plans afoot and things are being done. That said, I do think it unlikely we will get an academy division again based on previous staff comments.

As to new coaches leaving and the welcome they may or may not receive. I do try go out my way to welcome new coaches to the site, and have in the past, played multiple league games vs new coaches in order to get them used to the client (even outside of 145). When I play a new coach, I do attempt to point out any small errors they may have made if they are receptive to constructive criticism, and will encourage them in their play and suggest that they sign up for 145 club, or if they prefer a more intensive 1 to 1 tuition lesson, to contact the faculty of advisers. I will even go so far as to recommend specific advisers to contact depending on which area of play they wish to improve best or which race(s) they are interested in using. I also recommend coaches to PM for questions on certain races if they have (ever Wink ) stated in a thread that they have no problems with that.

In general box/ranked play I will mention the 145 club if I notice a coach is new or struggling, and have PM'd several coaches the details after games at their request.


I would hesitate to label anyone rated "better than X" as unsuitable to play vs a rookie coach. To be quite honest, and I would love to name some of them right here, yes, there are some coaches in divisions who "specialise" in playing new/inexperienced coaches and racking up wins vs them while doing nothing for the community. But there are also coaches who will play newcomers and do their upmost to make it an absolutely enjoyable and educational experience for them, your ranking/CR as a coach is absolutely no judgement on your moral fibre.

There's also a fair number of coaches who would prefer to play vs high calibre opponents to immediately learn in the deep end. I don't think we should exclude them from that option either.

This is without even mentioning the coaches who don't want to play 145, aren't interested in improving play and simply want to play games. Limiting their opponents and putting them into an enclosed "probational" environment (as that is what it is likely to represent for some) is more likely to simply turn them away.


I also think it's unwise to set specific goals on coach retention. People have various reasons for playing blood bowl and various reasons for lack of participation or leaving. Some of them we can possibly work on, but a great many we cannot. It's important to remember that this is a niche site inside an already niche hobby - people will dip in and out, and interest waxes and wanes. On top of that, forum participation is an even more narrow representation of the userbase.


Anyway, I've covered a lot here and am meandering a bit, so will stop and possibly return later Smile

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 09, 2016 - 00:07 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
I dont think theres any good achieved in playing Legend coaches who are fully invested in winning the game ahead of everything else by every means at their disposal. Itd be like a pop warner team playing a 60 minute game against an NFL team where the NFL team treats it like the Super Bowl. What lessons can you take away as a 10 year old from the experience of getting your face ripped off by the Seahawks?
I don't see it like that at all. "Hi, you're playing in Ranked. I assume that means you know how to play BB? Not really, you say? Here, let's play a League game after this, and I'll give you some pointers. I can't go 'easy' on you, per site rules, but I can give you tips and discuss any mistakes you may have made." Then after the match, send them a PM with some advice, and links to the 145 Club and the Faculty.

Quote:
I think we are aggregately ungenerous on the timelines it takes to grasp the game and be competent at the game. For some it might take 100 games, others 2000. Helping coaches identify their weak spots and giving them positive feedback for their gains in aptitude is essential.
Define "competent". If you've got good coaching and come in with an inkling of what BB is, you should be able to hold your own after a handful of games. (Noting, of course, that most of the people who show up on FUMBBL have at least a little BB experience, know to take a pow over a skull, know what a Tackle Zone is, etc. I took about 10-12 games to get used to the client, then I was posting winning records: there are a fair number of coaches who show up goodish and need only learn the client to be able to compete, though usually they still have room to grow.)

Quote:
Experience in itself isnt enough to grow, you need a concious investment of thinking and evaluation to reap the fruit of experience.
This. We need to do more for noobz on FUMBBL. This game may be wacky and luck-driven, but it's also hella hard, and it's easy to forget that.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 09, 2016 - 00:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess the roadblock for me is that I feel gauche giving unsolicited advice especially given my own level of talent after 2000 games. The perilous few times I've played Ranked against a <100 game coach since it was the only game in town, I've never taken it to be an opportunity to help them along the way and learn because I feel out of place doing so. I feel like it's patronizing to give pointers without being asked.

I play BB like I dated ladies - I'm not going to go out of my way until I'm assured you want my attention.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 09, 2016 - 01:52 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
I guess the roadblock for me is that I feel gauche giving unsolicited advice especially given my own level of talent after 2000 games. The perilous few times I've played Ranked against a <100 game coach since it was the only game in town, I've never taken it to be an opportunity to help them along the way and learn because I feel out of place doing so. I feel like it's patronizing to give pointers without being asked.

I play BB like I dated ladies - I'm not going to go out of my way until I'm assured you want my attention.


That was an advantage of the old [A]cademy division. It didn't feel uncomfortable asking someone if they wanted help/tips.

It was a good place for someone to get their first few games.
Some of the games in [A] were not even full games. We sometimes just played a half so that the player could get used to the client and get some of the basics.

A lot of people have not 'really' played blood bowl before. A lot of them wouldn't stand much chance vs the average 145 Club coach. Wink

People coming to 145 Club have often already played a fair few games before they find it.

A lot of the 'real' rookies don't even get as far as 145 Club.

The problem with gamefinder is that people generally only go on it when they want a game.
The old gamefinder was open. If you saw a coach waiting in Academy you could offer them some help. Maybe just play half a game if you didn't have time for a full game.

You could do it in chat. If anyone used chat.

There were very few games played in [A] though. It was very slow. The chances of two rookies meeting there was slim. I suspect we are now short of experienced greeters/mentors

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