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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 12:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I would assume the rules are intentionally grey because the rules cannot possibly cover all eventualities. That's why we have poor sods who act as security officers and try to guess what was going through people's heads during XYZ and what is truth/obfuscation later.

The problem with such rules is that they place emphasis on humans to act with compassion, empathy and understanding. Even outwith of those acting from a position of ignorance, these things tend to be in short supply for some people when they perceive there is an advantage to be gained.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 12:28 Reply with quote Back to top

As I said, I really think it's best not discussing this sort of thing. However do we see a whole host of coaches complaining that they were treated badly due to timing out illegally?

We don't, which suggest the staff have a way of dealing with it (if it is regular).

But your point, yeah maybe it should be in the rules.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 12:39 Reply with quote Back to top

harvestmouse wrote:
As I said, I really think it's best not discussing this sort of thing. However do we see a whole host of coaches complaining that they were treated badly due to timing out illegally?

We don't, which suggest the staff have a way of dealing with it (if it is regular).

But your point, yeah maybe it should be in the rules.


This is my second today. It's not even lunch time. Wink

If discussing it means that more people know the unwritten rules then I think that is a good thing.

Clearly, even people with hundreds and even thousands of games played don't know the unwritten rules and are giving people incorrect advice.

I have updated my rules. Wink

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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 12:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure this has been mentioned in the previous pages (I hope it was) but would like to point out again that disconnecting from a game is not an appropriate way to respond to a rule violation.
You either try to discuss with your fellow coach how to remedy the issue or you involve the administration.
You can't just superimpose a statement like 'you broke the rules' on somebody and leave.
Tarabaralla



Joined: Jul 24, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 12:58 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
I'm not sure this has been mentioned in the previous pages (I hope it was) but would like to point out again that disconnecting from a game is not an appropriate way to respond to a rule violation.
You either try to discuss with your fellow coach how to remedy the issue or you involve the administration.
You can't just superimpose a statement like 'you broke the rules' on somebody and leave.


Well, after being timeouted I'd consider screenshotting anything useful then leaving, to solve it on the IRC chat.
Otherwise you may find yourself short in time to play your turn and vulnerable to further timeouting Very Happy
Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
My point is how, are (new?) coaches supposed to know what the rules are if they are not on the rules page?

The rules page does not seem to mention timing out at all.

Bear in mind that Cyanide has auto timeout so it shouldn't be a shock if people hit timeout as soon as they see the clock hit 4.01.


+1

I actually thought there was something on the site rules page about timeouts but there isn't. Many of the more experienced Fumbbl coaches will be familiar with the unwritten "Don't time out someone who is afk for rl reasons" but it would be good to clarify this on the rules page.

As one of the slower players around who gets timed out often I can confirm that different coaches handle this very differently.

Here are my thoughts:
- thinking is allowed 'intentionally delaying' is not. It is impossible to be sure which your opponent is doing so don't assume the worst. On the other hand if you are not thinking but always taking the 4 mins anyway then you are intentionally delaying which is breaking the rules. Only you know if you are doing it so take responsibility for your own behaviour.
- timing someone out when they are afk for rl reasons is not allowed. If you have to go afk (e.g. because your previously sleeping baby is crying) let your opponent know. People are very reasonable when communication is honest and good.
- the only way to be 100% sure that your opponent is not afk for rl reasons is to check. The safest way is to ask.
- timing out after 4 mins is perfectly legitimate provided your opponent is not afk. If you are sure they are not afk it is your choice. Either approach is fine.
- Be angry with yourself not your opponent if you are legitimately timed out, that was your mistake for taking too long.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 14:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Endzone wrote:

- timing someone out when they are afk for rl reasons is not allowed.


Going afk for any reason is not actually a valid reason to not be timed out. I remember some clarifications on this from administrative members.
However any afk could have a valid reason for passing time limit.
Likewise no reason that involves not going afk can be valid. So it is simply the obvious thing to look for.

Generally if you are willing to prioritize other activities over the game you have to accept that you can be occasionally timed out for it. Although yours is a very family friendly way of thinking and probably goes a long way in handling actual situations like that (since timing is optional, it is and can actually be best handled on a social level) its probably not so good to spread such rules misconceptions via hearsay.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 14:50
FUMBBL Staff
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A couple of quick points regarding timeouts:

1. The rules do not require you to warn your opponent about a timeout. It is, however, very common for people to do so as a courtesy.

2. If someone is away from the keyboard, this does not automatically make it against the rules to time them out.

3. Timing out someone who is disconnected is against the rules.

That being said, there are complexities when it comes to points 2 and 3. The rules state that a person is considered disconnected after 15 minutes of AFK. Clearly, this is far beyond the standard 4 minute rule. On top of this, the FFB client and server does not currently detect disconnections very well (there are technical reasons for why this is the case - TCP/IP is hard), which means that a proper disconnection often keeps the turn timer running. "Proper" in this context means the connection between the client and the server is cut off rather than a game window being closed.

In an ideal world, the FFB client would be patched to deal with disconnections in a conclusive way. That would simply make the rule "If it's possible to click the timeout button, it's allowed according to the rules". Very simple.

With that not being the case, the staff needs to make a decision either way which in most cases comes down to talking to the two coaches involved and coming to a mutual agreement with what to do (there is no way to "undo" a timeout). If no agreement can be made, the staff member will make a call and decide whether or not to cancel the game or expect the coaches to finish the game.
Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 15:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
A couple of quick points regarding timeouts:

1. The rules do not require you to warn your opponent about a timeout. It is, however, very common for people to do so as a courtesy.

2. If someone is away from the keyboard, this does not automatically make it against the rules to time them out.

3. Timing out someone who is disconnected is against the rules.

That being said, there are complexities when it comes to points 2 and 3. The rules state that a person is considered disconnected after 15 minutes of AFK. Clearly, this is far beyond the standard 4 minute rule. On top of this, the FFB client and server does not currently detect disconnections very well (there are technical reasons for why this is the case - TCP/IP is hard), which means that a proper disconnection often keeps the turn timer running. "Proper" in this context means the connection between the client and the server is cut off rather than a game window being closed.

In an ideal world, the FFB client would be patched to deal with disconnections in a conclusive way. That would simply make the rule "If it's possible to click the timeout button, it's allowed according to the rules". Very simple.

With that not being the case, the staff needs to make a decision either way which in most cases comes down to talking to the two coaches involved and coming to a mutual agreement with what to do (there is no way to "undo" a timeout). If no agreement can be made, the staff member will make a call and decide whether or not to cancel the game or expect the coaches to finish the game.


Thanks Christer, this clarification is helpful. Would it be possible to add something to this effect to the rules page as this seems to be a topic where there is some confusion? Also, do you think that something needs to be added to your comments to stress the expectation about 'the spirit' of the game to cover a scenario where one coach makes the other aware of a genuine, reasonable rl situation which could not have been predicted prior to starting the game?
Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 15:10 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

So you're telling me you'd rather be antisocial than show courtesey, because you interpret the rules to allow you leeway in doing so? You're a peach.

What's the harm in a warning?


Where did I say that I wouldn't give a warning? I don't think I ever timed someone out, just to be clear.

That said, the rules are pretty clear, a turn
(in tabletop) is 4 minutes. No optionality. The optionality is there for RL issues only, so timing someone out at 4:01 without warning is totally fine by the rules.
Antisocial maybe, but so is wasting your opponent's time by taking more time than you need/are allowed to. imo.

Cheers.

Peach.
CW



Joined: Jun 25, 2005

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 15:30 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Uedder wrote:
If your opponent is playing his turn and has been playing for 4 minutes, then you can timeout. Warning is courtesy.

IF your opponent isn't playing and is irresponsive in the chat, then you must assume his cat was on fire, so timing him out is against the rules.

Likewise, if your opponent warns you he will be "afk" or "brb" then you're not allowed to time him out.

Also, read the rules. That's a rule.


I think you may be misreading his post. He was simply trying to tell the OP what is allowed and what is not allowed.

So you're telling me you'd rather be antisocial than show courtesey, because you interpret the rules to allow you leeway in doing so? You're a peach.

What's the harm in a warning?
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 15:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
"Proper" in this context means the connection between the client and the server is cut off rather than a game window being closed.


This is good to know. I had assumed that if you close the client window then it would be treated as a d/c and the clock would stop.

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Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 15:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Going back to the original post, I would say it was unsporting to time your opponent out if he had said he was going to be afk. Generally I think if coaches are called away from their computer due to a real rl situation and they make their opponent aware that they are going to be afk they will be quite disappointed and annoyed to be timed our when they return. Even if the site rules don't cover this it should be fairly obvious what the right thing to do is here 'in the spirit of the game'.

I have played a number of opponents who have a policy of hitting the timer as soon as 4 minutes come up - normally they also have the courtesy of letting their opponent know that is how they play. I have not come across an opponent yet (thankfully) who has a policy of hitting timeout when their opponent has said they have to go afk. People are normally very decent about this.
mdd31



Joined: Oct 23, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 16:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
A couple of quick points regarding timeouts:

1. The rules do not require you to warn your opponent about a timeout. It is, however, very common for people to do so as a courtesy.

2. If someone is away from the keyboard, this does not automatically make it against the rules to time them out.

3. Timing out someone who is disconnected is against the rules.

That being said, there are complexities when it comes to points 2 and 3. The rules state that a person is considered disconnected after 15 minutes of AFK. Clearly, this is far beyond the standard 4 minute rule. On top of this, the FFB client and server does not currently detect disconnections very well (there are technical reasons for why this is the case - TCP/IP is hard), which means that a proper disconnection often keeps the turn timer running. "Proper" in this context means the connection between the client and the server is cut off rather than a game window being closed.

In an ideal world, the FFB client would be patched to deal with disconnections in a conclusive way. That would simply make the rule "If it's possible to click the timeout button, it's allowed according to the rules". Very simple.

With that not being the case, the staff needs to make a decision either way which in most cases comes down to talking to the two coaches involved and coming to a mutual agreement with what to do (there is no way to "undo" a timeout). If no agreement can be made, the staff member will make a call and decide whether or not to cancel the game or expect the coaches to finish the game.


Maybe Christer's points should be posted somewhere so everyone knows the rules because clearly using the TO button is not illegal or ban worthy like many players. I know for myself if I am playing someone and extend past the 4 min time limit then I would expect to be timed out regardless (even if I said I was AFK and they hit TO I would just deal with it and not go running to the forums or the Admins).

People seem to forget that it is not just about them and their real life. BOTH people playing have a real life and one person's time is not more valuable than someone else's time. If you can not 100% commit to a game without the possibility of interruption and you are not willing to accept being "timed out" if you are interrupted then don't start a game. Having said that I have never and would never TO someone who told me they were going AFK. But if someone is playing slow or just disappears without saying a word then the TO button is part of the consequences of their actions which is clearly supported by Christer's post.
charlie1331



Joined: Sep 16, 2012

Post   Posted: Feb 15, 2016 - 17:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I think it's important to remember that while we're all here to play a game, many of us play it for different reasons. And although there are guidelines for timing out an opponent, the fact that there is a 3 page discussion with many very knowledgeable coaches, indicates some ambiguity/gray areas. This will undoubtedly lead to this topic resurfacing again and again as power gamers lose their patience with casual gamers, and coaches under a time constraint get frustrated with coaches whom have time to spare. It seems very similar to the topic of CPOMB and how it's the worst thing to ever happen to BB and at the same time the best. *shrug*

I'd say that 80% of the coaches I've played against are fun people, who enjoy the chat and are understanding that life happens. If I happen to go over my 4 minutes I issue a quick apology and try and be more focused going forward. Likewise that's all I'm ever looking for why an opponent runs long on me. I understand that sometimes we're presented with difficult turns and if my play is causing you to take more than 4 minutes I see it as a compliment. I believe I've only ever timed out one opponent and that was at the beginning of my Fumbbl career when I didn't really understand the nuances of the act. I'd much rather be remembered as a fun coach to play against that some time hawk with his finger over the TO button.

Except when I play my brother, in which case the timeout bell and my pushing the button are simultaneous.

Also something else to keep in mind is that TT bloodbowl takes more time than online games. All the dice rolling, casualties, figuring out the math on dodges, passes, catches, etc is all worked out for us automatically. If anything the timer should be set to 3:30

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