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NerdBird



Joined: Apr 08, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 03:50 Reply with quote Back to top

When I first came to FUMBBL I saw two things that immediately bothered me. The more I played the more I realized this was just smart gaming and necessary to keep your team together and actually win more games.

The first one was: Stalling. I see a lot of newer people to the site that get really annoyed by this. I really see it as part of the game but thinking back, I can really understand why this is so annoying to so many; it is completely contrary to most real-life sports. In real-life sports/games everyone usually wants to score as many as possible. To purposely restrict the score from occurring is seen as blasphemy in the world of sports.

The second observation was: TV/Team management. Everyone was striving to squeeze every ounce of TV out of their team. This is kind of crappy when you really think about it. Can you imagine in real sports if teams didn't have benches so they could afford to pay the best players? Sure, your team is lean, but when things start to fall apart and a few guys get hurt, you are really hosed; Just like in BloodBowl much of the time. Playing TT everyone always wanted coaches and cheerleaders so they could have a cool representation on the sideline...on FUMBBL this is pretty lame since the use of a cheerleader or assistant coach is almost NIL for the cost in TV.


I saw an idea recently that really intrigued me; bringing bench players onto the pitch from your Endzone. I don't know if it should be automatic but what about when you drop to 10 players, at the start of your turn, you can put a player on the pitch(of your choice) on a roll of a 4+. If you drop to 9 you can roll and now it is a 3+. If you drop to 8 and below it becomes a 2+ roll. This could essentially reduce the amount of Stalling occurring and give a really big reason for benches.

To me the two issues I listed are really minor annoyances to me now that I have played but I still understand the urge for so many people to correct this and this could possibly be an easy mechanic to add that changes the game a bit.

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pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 04:00 Reply with quote Back to top

subs mid drive?

nope.

nope...

nope.....

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Beerox



Joined: Feb 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 04:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Stalling is one of my fave things about the NFL. If you have earned a lead or worked forward to a good position, you shouldn't have to surrender the ball to the other team.

As far as fumbbl subs go... it would be a nightmare seeing line orcs leak onto the field after working so hard to remove them.

Both of the above speak to the same thing. I've earned time or position in the game and with the current rules my accomplishment means something. Making me score or sticking new players on the pitch, that voids the accomplishment.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 04:55 Reply with quote Back to top

NerdBird wrote:

The second observation was: TV/Team management. Everyone was striving to squeeze every ounce of TV out of their team. This is kind of crappy when you really think about it. Can you imagine in real sports if teams didn't have benches so they could afford to pay the best players? Sure, your team is lean, but when things start to fall apart and a few guys get hurt, you are really hosed; Just like in BloodBowl much of the time. Playing TT everyone always wanted coaches and cheerleaders so they could have a cool representation on the sideline...on FUMBBL this is pretty lame since the use of a cheerleader or assistant coach is almost NIL for the cost in TV.

Real sports teams are not paired by TV nor get inducements, so keeping their "TV" lean would not be advantageous.
Also, in real sports you can bring reserves to the pitch during the match, not only at Kick-Off or when a point is scored.
I can have 5 reserves in the bench but if I lose players during the half that half is screwed because I can't bring them on the pitch DURING the half.
That's the huge issue, moreover, real sports teams don't have roster limitations, having a bench with 5 lineplayers won't help a lot if you can't replace the core positionals.


As an aside, recovering from KO is really really random.
More than one match has been ruined by KO players not recovering after 2 attempts.
I'd like a simple fix to KO: every time a player tries to recover from KO and fails he can add +1 to the next attempt.
So first time is 4+, second time is 3+, third time 2+, 1 always fails.
Bloodweiser Babes should be reworked but the game would be improved.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 05:14 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
the game would be improved.


in you opinion.

i call bollocks. i think the game would be made worse, in my opinion

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 05:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Football, Rugby, NFL, they all use stalling in various ways. Managing field position and running down the clock when you've got the ball are key strategies, fumbbl just does it before the score, for added risk.

NRL in Australia, the salary cap for teams means having the best players makes the rest of your team pretty minimal, and certainly not with anyone you've ever heard of on the bench. So managing the total quality of your team against arbitrary values is also a thing. Any teams with relatively limited budgets have to be very careful where they spend their money, and there is much real sports commentary about which transfers and player signings are smart and which are not.

Also, take more Dirty Tricks when you've got a bench. There's a card lets you run on a 12th player from your own endzone at any point (but only to take a move action first up). 50k well spent.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 09:35 Reply with quote Back to top

NerdBird wrote:
When I first came to FUMBBL I saw two things that immediately bothered me.
This is the crux of the problem (and it is a problem).

I think there are generally 3 type of gamers that find there way to FUMBBL now.

1. Cyanide players. Who generally will be prepared for FUMBBL.
2. Competitive mechanical players. May have come here via the NAF or found the site as a competitive game.
3. Fantasy Gamers. I'll still hold even though GW haven't made or promoted the game for a long time that this is still the games niche player.

With a fantasy gamer, he wants to see a game that was always GWs motto. Replicating the feel of what it would actually be like. And this is where the problem lies. It's not necessarily with new coaches either. A lot of coaches do not like either of those 2 mechanics. At worst their gaming the system and at best unsightly.

Stalling

It's all well and good relating to real life games, however no real life game has turns. We only have turns as it's a turn based game. Turns are therefore a mechanic that helps to show at the end of the game a match that replicates what the sport would be. Not that in real life the Orcs would have go and say 'Ok Chaos, now it's your turn'. I can appreciate that there would be or could be stalling; however not in the sense of American Football or Rugby as there aren't pauses in play. Like football (soccer), yeah this could happen. This would more likely be replicated by Elves that stay near the back and pass the ball around to run down the clock. Would you have or would it be allowed to sit on the TD line, cage up and beat down? No, I'm pretty sure they'd make rules against that.

However, could you foresee a Khorne team or a Norse Berserker team totally forgetting about the ball to go and beat up some more? Yes, which makes it difficult. In our game there are lots of grey lines. Which allows coaches to feel they can argue a call when the grey line isn't even in site anymore. "What! If he's allow to 'marginally' step over the grey line, how is what I am doing wrong?'

So could we combat it? The problem against stalling is that it's more unfair than if you allow stalling. I play my own league and I don't allow (myself) stalling. As it's only me that plays it, I don't have to make any ethical calls as I know what I am thinking. Basically if there are no dice to roll, I have to score. If I am in TD range (without gfi) and I can clear a path so there are no dice to roll, I have to score. I cannot foul to cause a turnover.

I have been playing this quite a while now and have over a 1000 games at all TVs. It works for me, but the problem is, it isn't fair. The problem is that actually stalling is actually fairer than not stalling. It of course favours faster teams but more than that I find it favours the faster teams with weaker defence qualities. I have a lot of Elven type sides that can't defend for toffee, however they're scraping through matches with 2-1 wins when being largely dominated and the weaker team. So by NOT stalling, it's very unfair on the MA4/5 teams.

However lets say this rule was brought in. How would it affect gaming. I'm pretty sure coaches wouldn't play like me (and how the rule was intended to prevent stalling). Rather they would stall 'just' outside of TD range. I think also if this was a real life sport that would be hard to combat (rulewise) where as TD line stalling is blatant. It would also offer another tactical element........it would also favour OTT teams as they'd get more T8 attempts.

Are there any other ways that we could combat stalling? Positive ways?

When I used to play TT what I set up for my small group to combat stalling was to play with 3 balls. One ball was played normally and the other 2 were given to a team. After each TD there was no resetting up, instead the ball was kicked by the scoring team upfield and couldn't be touched until the scored against touched it. Subs could come on and ko rolls were rolled. With 3 balls it's all well and good caging up and stalling, however if the other team are wizzing in with the other 2 balls it's not really working. Plus you have a large part of your team out of position.

Painstate also mentioned the old mechanic of letting subs on if they're available. This is what we used to play with old 2nd edition.

Beerox argued this by saying if he had worked to gain a man advantage he didn't want to see that go. However the idea of getting a man advantage is to score TDs and win. An objective to meet the eventual aim. Objective remove men, Aim to win the game (not to stall).

So adding subs could work, but it does open up a whole new kettle of fish problems.

Conclusion: The bottom line is we play a turn based game. By stalling coaches are managing the turns to replicate an authentic result. By not allowing stalling we are potentially affecting the team playing and doing better winning the game. I feel unfortunately that attempting to combat the problem would cause more problems than it would solve. Turn based games try to authenticate a real life game with an overall package, not play by play. Stalling is a tactic coaches have added to protect that.......which is as the game is a necessary shame.

TV management

For me and you all know this, I think this is a massive problem. Also the longer we go the more it's accepted by the community and fewer coaches can relate to the problem. Fewer coaches can relate to new fantasy gamers that are dismayed by it and that it's killing the soul of a fantasy game and making it purely a competitive mechanical one.

I'll say it right here. I refuse to play 11 man teams with a large pot of gold on principle. It isn't right, and in my mind it does need to be combated. We need to remember what is TVs role?

*Calculate a teams worth
*Compare team value to money (worth, gain, power)
*Allow for a mechanic to make fair match ups

By minmaxing all of those go out of the window. The teams worth is artificial, you cannot compare the value of the team to money as it's deliberately held back. Used as a way to make fair match ups has become laughable with teams that have played a decent amount of games.

On top of this, it's holding the game back. The idea of any game is to progress, gain as much power as possible. This may take a long time, coaches may argue that they will do eventually......but that day will never come. So instead we have poor looking diseased teams running around dominating due to TV management. Now, don't get me wrong TV management should be part of the game, but the mindset is all wrong. TV management should be about what will make me stronger, not about what will give me a TV advantage; this doesn't exist in real sport apart from money issues and we have money already in this game.

If this is a fantasy game (and we should see more and more hobby gamers enter the arena if GW have their way) then this really should be combated, and that's why I have suggested that the different formats (resurrection, long term league, cups/short leagues, perpetual) need different out of game rules.

TV works perfect for resurrection (bar unused skills that need to be made cheaper) however in my opinion terribly for replicating a fantasy game in perpetual (especially Blackbox).

So if TV isn't working for making fair match ups, i.e. too many games are won on TV management. Why are we handicapping with TV? It isn't working. Team win/loss record should be used in someway to calculate handicapping, then we will see teams trying to be as strong as they can, rather than as strong as they can for an opponent they've programmed for.

Conclusion: In my mind (and I'm not just talking about hardcore FUMBBL here, which is out there on the fringe) the hobby needs to combat minmaxing.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 09:59 Reply with quote Back to top

I think there should be a "CRP minmaxing suggestion and complaint" thread...

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 10:00 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
I think there should be a "CRP minmaxing suggestion and complaint" thread...


Actually I made one, joint with a CPOMB thread. It didn't take off though.....but when Lorebass made one....70 odd pages and rising.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 10:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem with "minmaxing" is that a variety of different people will have differing views on exactly what it constitutes and the second you bring it up, it devolves into an argument on semantics.

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 10:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Stalling not a problem.

Full benches the law of unintended consequences. Any mechanic to make them bigger I think would probably upset the bash agility balence and be a barrier to fouling for teams that do it now without making fouling more efective. I think that is a bigger problem than the current effects on min/max

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DLE College 7s
Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 10:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Skills should contribute more to TV. If all core skills cost 30TV and minor skills cost 20K that would be a positive change. I agree that cheer leaders and assistant coaches need to be buffed a bit to make the optimum number say 6 or 8 rather than 0.

I think stalling is fine. I think this would happen. The orcs would know that if they score quickly the elves would run past them and score back so they would cage up and try to kill the elves. This is in 'the spirit' of the game since the fans want to see blood just as much as touchdowns (maybe more). The orc fans would be going wild as the elves were pulled limb from limb. The difference in tactics between the races is one of the beauties of the game.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 10:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Matthueycamo wrote:
Stalling not a problem.

Full benches the law of unintended consequences. Any mechanic to make them bigger I think would probably upset the bash agility balence and be a barrier to fouling for teams that do it now without making fouling more efective. I think that is a bigger problem than the current effects on min/max


Not if handicapping in perpetual was based on W/L and Leagues on table position.

I think if teams 'did' have a full bench, then yes you are right, Elves dominate. However having and aiming for a full bench are 2 different things. I think you'd have teams stopping at 14/15 for stars anyway.

The bottom line is this is the difference. Making your team to be competitive for the TV/Making your team to be as competitive as possible.

I think there's room for minmaxing as a sub group, options are great and it's interesting (in a way). However not as the main divisions and the main way of playing.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 10:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Endzone wrote:
Skills should contribute more to TV. If all core skills cost 30TV and minor skills cost 20K that would be a positive change. I agree that cheer leaders and assistant coaches need to be buffed a bit to make the optimum number say 6 or 8 rather than 0.

I think stalling is fine. I think this would happen. The orcs would know that if they score quickly the elves would run past them and score back so they would cage up and try to kill the elves. This is in 'the spirit' of the game since the fans want to see blood just as much as touchdowns (maybe more). The orc fans would be going wild as the elves were pulled limb from limb. The difference in tactics between the races is one of the beauties of the game.

This is probably the only comment in this thread that makes sense to me.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 19, 2016 - 10:27 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Endzone wrote:
Skills should contribute more to TV. If all core skills cost 30TV and minor skills cost 20K that would be a positive change. I agree that cheer leaders and assistant coaches need to be buffed a bit to make the optimum number say 6 or 8 rather than 0.

I think stalling is fine. I think this would happen. The orcs would know that if they score quickly the elves would run past them and score back so they would cage up and try to kill the elves. This is in 'the spirit' of the game since the fans want to see blood just as much as touchdowns (maybe more). The orc fans would be going wild as the elves were pulled limb from limb. The difference in tactics between the races is one of the beauties of the game.

This is probably the only comment in this thread that makes sense to me.


Yeah, as you have the same mindset and play the same way. If everybody played as you 2 do, then the 4/5ths of the game would become irrelevant. You (more than Endzone) see this game totally mechanically and really don't have a feel for the other part.

@Endzone How would skill price changes affect either stalling or minmaxing? If you change the price of core skills Norse and Zons dominate even more at low TV.
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