FUMBBL :: Online Blood Bowl League

MonkeyMan576

Joined: Jul 02, 2008

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 07:48

pythrr wrote:

licker wrote:

Jeffro wrote:

harvestmouse wrote:

MonkeyMan576 wrote:

It's like playing baseball and saying using the double switch is against the spirit of the game, because other coaches utilize it better than you. At some point the argument becomes moot, because it's in the rules and it's not going to change.

No, you just don't get it. Against the spirit of the game, would be like being able to use a double switch like tactic (just briefly read about it) on a table top or computer game version of baseball, which differs the real game and/or from intended in the game version.

From what I can tell, fair play rules don't go down too well in professional American sports compared to win at all costs (within the rules of the game).

I would say MonkeyMan has it exactly correct. There is no "rule" per say against either.

And don't lump it with American sports... there are plenty of cheap shitty players of sports in the rest of the world... no shortage of them anywhere.

Yeah I don't get the shot at 'american sports' which is basically just football, because everything else is played everywhere else anyway.

well, maybe Baseball too. Who else plays that? Japan (cos you bombed them and then gave them baseball as a "we're sorry" gift)? Canada (not that we count). Cuba. And now .... I'm out of countries. Probably some other latino countries a bit, but mainly to try and get green cards, one imagines.

Ice Hockey (if that is an american sport, and not just a North East sport) is more widespread -- you've even got the Ruskies play that!).

Basketball is widespread, even if most other countries kinda suck at it. I mean, it's big in Europe, but does anyone really care? No? No.

Are we out of "American" sports now? NASCAR? Ricky-Bobby FTW!

Here is a list of teams that have appeared in the World Baseball Classic(baseball's version of the world cup)(via Wikipedia). Click on the link to get the image.

Tripleskull

Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 08:37

I am getting pretty tired of listening to how n00bish, ignorant and bad at blood bowl I am because I think stalling should be made harder.

Here is an example of an 8 turn stall I made a few days ago and this is a perfectly normal play for me.

https://fumbbl.com/ffblive.jnlp?replay=847165

I have played for about 20 years. I have played Purplegoo and many other legendary players at the top tables of international TT-tournaments for years. Even here on fumbbl where I always feel like I play like a sack of shit because i make "miss clicks", "miss moves" etc. I believe I win about 75%. I think I with some confidence can say that a guy like purplegoo considers me hes equal. Could we now get back to the issue at hand please?

Of cause stalling is going to be a bigger problem for n00bs who have no way of dealing with it and bad understanding og the game mechanics and what mistakes they made to alow the stalling. But I often don't like the game much when I am winning and stalling. I absolutely hate the game when I am loosing but that has next to nothing to do with stalling.

To sum up. Stalling is a good strategy. I stall all the time and have no problem with other people stalling but I would still like to see some change to make it happen less often. I want to make it a less good strategy by changing a few things. Say give some cage breaking ability to the strength skills.

koadah

Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 10:38

I don't see any problem with that match. If that was an 8 turn stall then most matches are 8 turn stalls. The recommended strategy is a 8 turn stall.

The opponent had 9 players on the field. It is up to him to stop you.

If you don't like it don't stall. There is no reason to change anything because of matches like that.

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 5 more teams needed

Tripleskull

Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 10:59

koadah wrote:

If that was an 8 turn stall then most matches are 8 turn stalls. The recommended strategy is a 8 turn stall.

I agree 100% with this. I didn't mention the game because it was special in any way. It is just a regular stall. The difference in our opinions is that I think it should be changed so there are more different viable strategies. If even with WEs against Lizards the best strategy is stalling I think it is an indication of a problem - it being the best defensive set up.

zakatan

Joined: May 17, 2008

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 12:29

Tripleskull wrote:

koadah wrote:

If that was an 8 turn stall then most matches are 8 turn stalls. The recommended strategy is a 8 turn stall.

I agree 100% with this. I didn't mention the game because it was special in any way. It is just a regular stall. The difference in our opinions is that I think it should be changed so there are more different viable strategies. If even with WEs against Lizards the best strategy is stalling I think it is an indication of a problem - it being the best defensive set up.

In some match-ups the 8-turn stall isn't the best strategy. Often, in high AG-High MA vs low-mobility low-AG the good strategy is to score at about turn 4~5 so that it is actually easier to steal the ball and score again than the UD/Khemri/dorf opposition scoring themselves. Then again, stalling is so prevasive that you see Woodies trying to stall 8 turns against khemri, which is the wrong approach imo.

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plasmoid

Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 13:21

Can't pretend that I'm as good a coach as Tripleskull.
But I'm certainly not inexperienced or a noob.

Stalling is perfectly within the rule.
And in many games stalling can be quite tactical, tense and exciting.
And I certainly wouldn't want stalling banned/removed.

But like Tripleskull, I do think that it is overly pervasive, and would like to see it made a touch harder. And by extension perhaps other tactics a touch more viable. With absolutely no intention to change the official rules(!) I would personally find it interesting to play in a League, where stalling was a touch more challenging.

I think the other side of the stalling issue is (as always) to do with CPOMB. If/when your team loses multiple players in the first few turns, then the stall becomes (almost) a foregone conclusion. Yes, you could miracuslously fight your way back. But if your opponent isn't a dunce, then you most likely will not. And those are 5-6 boring turns. Which - Again - is not to say that it should be disallowed. But that BB would be more interesting, if there were fewer dead turn.

What would happen, for instance, if KO was "double stunned" rather than removed from the pitch?

Cheers
Martin

straume

Joined: Dec 01, 2003

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 13:59

Is it so easy, though? Perhaps, sometimes, but more often not?

From a gaming perspective you want to get that score in T8. Your opponent wants to prevent that by either stealing the ball, or forcing an early score. Is that bad somehow? Boring? I don`t think so.

zakatan

Joined: May 17, 2008

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 14:11

straume wrote:

Is it so easy, though? Perhaps, sometimes, but more often not?

From a gaming perspective you want to get that score in T8. Your opponent wants to prevent that by either stealing the ball, or forcing an early score. Is that bad somehow? Boring? I don`t think so.

I'd agree, the problem is essentially the lack of incentives to score earlier. There's no reason whatsoever to score in turns 6-7 in 90% of the occasions, so why would you. Get an extra round of hits, the reasonable chance to get scored back with ease and losing the tempo of the game in exchange for... hmm... making the games "less boring" or "more in fluff"?

Any somewhat competitive gamer would stall because there is no reason not to.

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plasmoid

Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 15:44

Agreed!
Which is why disallowing it would never work.
But making it slightly harder would force the occasional score - and a more open game.

I mean: Stalling takes skill.
But so does stopping a 2 or 3 turn drive. That makes BB exciting too.

Cheers
Martin

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 16:46

zakatan wrote:

straume wrote:

Is it so easy, though? Perhaps, sometimes, but more often not?

From a gaming perspective you want to get that score in T8. Your opponent wants to prevent that by either stealing the ball, or forcing an early score. Is that bad somehow? Boring? I don`t think so.

I'd agree, the problem is essentially the lack of incentives to score earlier. There's no reason whatsoever to score in turns 6-7 in 90% of the occasions, so why would you. Get an extra round of hits, the reasonable chance to get scored back with ease and losing the tempo of the game in exchange for... hmm... making the games "less boring" or "more in fluff"?

Any somewhat competitive gamer would stall because there is no reason not to.

Ugg, no the problem is that many coaches simply don't play well enough to understand how to counter a 2:1 grind strategy or how to implement one.

You want to make cage breaking easier? Explain how that makes cage teams score more quickly? It doesn't, it makes it HARDER for them to score period, because they have to cage in the first place, they don't exactly have any other options.

All I really see in this thread from the 'anti-stalling' group is a heavy elf ball bias. Fine, you love elfs and you want every game to play as though there are natural one turners on both teams.

I get it, but that point of view excludes 80% of the rest of the teams and the strategies they employ to be successful.

pythrr

Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 16:52

Tripleskull wrote:

I am getting pretty tired of listening to how n00bish, ignorant and bad at blood bowl I am because I think stalling should be made harder.

Here is an example of an 8 turn stall I made a few days ago and this is a perfectly normal play for me.

https://fumbbl.com/ffblive.jnlp?replay=847165

I have played for about 20 years. I have played Purplegoo and many other legendary players

Oh come on now. You can't claim to be an experienced player AND ALSO claim that Goo is any good. Wink

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Tripleskull

Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 17:15

pythrr wrote:

Tripleskull wrote:

I am getting pretty tired of listening to how n00bish, ignorant and bad at blood bowl I am because I think stalling should be made harder.

Here is an example of an 8 turn stall I made a few days ago and this is a perfectly normal play for me.

https://fumbbl.com/ffblive.jnlp?replay=847165

I have played for about 20 years. I have played Purplegoo and many other legendary players

Oh come on now. You can't claim to be an experienced player AND ALSO claim that Goo is any good. Wink

My bad! I take it all back. Smile

zakatan

Joined: May 17, 2008

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 18:51

licker wrote:

All I really see in this thread from the 'anti-stalling' group is a heavy elf ball bias. Fine, you love elfs and you want every game to play as though there are natural one turners on both teams.

I get it, but that point of view excludes 80% of the rest of the teams and the strategies they employ to be successful.

I do play elves and I believe you're confused. Agility teams stall a lot, but their stalls tend to be risky and precarious due to being undermanned or playing another agility team that poses a real threat to steal the ball. Stalling to your advantage when your position is contested is fun and exciting, and get hate too.

On the other hand there's a second kind of stalling where a team (usually a Strenght/mutation team) has taken over the pitch, is heavily ahead in numbers and just spends the last few turns of the half beating the survivors to a pulp. This situation is not desirable (to me) because one of the players has to suck it up and just waste half an hour of their time unable to actually play. I've been on the bashing side many times and had a lot of fun, but I've had the short stick too, and it is frustrating. For people with limited play time, the possibility to face one such game is a great drawback.

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Purplegoo

Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 20:10

I am not up to date with a conversation that appears to be happening across lots of pages of multiple threads, however I can confirm that Tripleskull is my equal...

...In that he's about 0.78 of a me, and it's convention to round up. Razz

(Kidding, of course. Nicolai is the proper business, and it's nice to be mentioned by a man of his significant talent. I also remember that Jeffro chap as rather handy)

As I say, I'm not up to date with the conversation, but there are few things more beautiful to me in Blood Bowl than a well constructed eight turn drive against a good coach when his players don't evaporate. I love to watch someone control the tempo of a half, limit chances for the defence and stall a half out, even when I'm on the wrong end of it (whilst I don't like to lose, if my opponent has played a great game, I enjoy his skills anyway and make a mental note that he's mine next time). I saw some mention of not playing at higher TV because the skill erodes; as a woolly generalisation, there's some truth in that for me. I don't like it too low, I don't like it too high, I like it 1200-1700 or so, which I feel is the sweet spot where coaching overcomes randomness most often, but randomness still plays a fun role.

I've no idea how relevant that is, I just wanted to kid with Tripleskull really. Wink

I totally appreciate the point about not feeling you play your best online. I haven't felt like I've played my best without minis infront of me since... Ooh, 2014? I almost feel out of the habit of FUMBBL, to be honest!

licker

Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Posted: Apr 28, 2016 - 22:04

zakatan wrote:

licker wrote:

All I really see in this thread from the 'anti-stalling' group is a heavy elf ball bias. Fine, you love elfs and you want every game to play as though there are natural one turners on both teams.

I get it, but that point of view excludes 80% of the rest of the teams and the strategies they employ to be successful.

I do play elves and I believe you're confused. Agility teams stall a lot, but their stalls tend to be risky and precarious due to being undermanned or playing another agility team that poses a real threat to steal the ball. Stalling to your advantage when your position is contested is fun and exciting, and get hate too.

On the other hand there's a second kind of stalling where a team (usually a Strenght/mutation team) has taken over the pitch, is heavily ahead in numbers and just spends the last few turns of the half beating the survivors to a pulp. This situation is not desirable (to me) because one of the players has to suck it up and just waste half an hour of their time unable to actually play. I've been on the bashing side many times and had a lot of fun, but I've had the short stick too, and it is frustrating. For people with limited play time, the possibility to face one such game is a great drawback.

No, I'm not confused at all, you are confused. You want the bash team to be forced to score 'early' so that the 'elf' team has a chance to score on them again.

A dicing is a dicing though, that really doesn't have anything to do with stalling but with your ability to handle things when they go pear shaped.

When a game is that lopsided though, the entire game is over in 30m, not one half, so I don't get that complaint either.

Let me update:

All this anti-stalling talk seems to come from pixel hugging elf biased coaches.

Yes, it sucks when your opponent just rolls over you and you can't even manage to roll the occasional push. Those games are utterly unfun, but they have nothing to do with stalling. You want someone to 'give' you a chance just because your dice are bad? That's not how the game works.