zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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 Posted:
Apr 28, 2016 - 22:32 |
 
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| licker wrote: | | No, I'm not confused at all, you are confused. You want the bash team to be forced to score 'early' so that the 'elf' team has a chance to score on them again. |
I'm really baffled that you inferred this from what I said.
I enjoy stalling as long as it's challenging for both parts. I don't enjoy unchallenged stalling because it's dull. I don't believe that under the current ruleset it takes a dicing to fall under the second situation.
I don't mind my pixels dieing, but I prefer low-cas games. |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 28, 2016 - 23:45 |
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| licker wrote: | | zakatan wrote: | | straume wrote: | Is it so easy, though? Perhaps, sometimes, but more often not?
From a gaming perspective you want to get that score in T8. Your opponent wants to prevent that by either stealing the ball, or forcing an early score. Is that bad somehow? Boring? I don`t think so. |
I'd agree, the problem is essentially the lack of incentives to score earlier. There's no reason whatsoever to score in turns 6-7 in 90% of the occasions, so why would you. Get an extra round of hits, the reasonable chance to get scored back with ease and losing the tempo of the game in exchange for... hmm... making the games "less boring" or "more in fluff"?
Any somewhat competitive gamer would stall because there is no reason not to. |
Ugg, no the problem is that many coaches simply don't play well enough to understand how to counter a 2:1 grind strategy or how to implement one.
You want to make cage breaking easier? Explain how that makes cage teams score more quickly? It doesn't, it makes it HARDER for them to score period, because they have to cage in the first place, they don't exactly have any other options.
All I really see in this thread from the 'anti-stalling' group is a heavy elf ball bias. Fine, you love elfs and you want every game to play as though there are natural one turners on both teams.
I get it, but that point of view excludes 80% of the rest of the teams and the strategies they employ to be successful. |
I for one would like to put the cage breaking buff on the strength skills, and given half a chance I would nerf wood elfs in to oblivion.
If you are somehow referring to me you are assigning me motives I don't have. I respect an 8 turn drive and I probably make them in the majority of my games regardless of what race I am playing. I do however think the game would be better if there was a harder choice to make when stalling with elfs and orcs alike. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2016 - 00:55 |
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| Tripleskull wrote: |
I for one would like to put the cage breaking buff on the strength skills, and given half a chance I would nerf wood elfs in to oblivion. |
But that doesn't help bash teams either. Elfs already don't have to cage, or have other options to deal with it, and bash teams don't have a plan B for not being able to cage. So when the bashers play each other you will get what exactly? But nerfing elfs is fine with me I'm simply convinced that removing stalling buffs them greatly.
| Tripleskull wrote: | | If you are somehow referring to me you are assigning me motives I don't have. I respect an 8 turn drive and I probably make them in the majority of my games regardless of what race I am playing. I do however think the game would be better if there was a harder choice to make when stalling with elfs and orcs alike. |
I'm referring to everyone who is whining about stalling.
My advice? Play better opponents. Well maybe you and goo can't though 
The thing is that a good stall is difficult indeed, when two well matched coaches (and teams) face each other, that's usually how it goes, and no one is complaining remotely about the match being 'boring' because the dwarf didn't try a gfi to score on turn 5 or whatever it is that people are worried about.
When the match is lopsided (either through talent or luck) then sure, it's boring. But my argument is that it's not boring because of stalling, it's boring because the dice were one sided or the coaching level wasn't close enough.
My argument is also that those 'boring' matches don't happen nearly that often either, but if you find yourself in them a lot, then you are either much better or worse than your opponents. |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2016 - 09:30 |
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I love grinding Easy-Goo to the ground on an 8 turn drive as much as he seems to enjoy it. 
However I find that too many drives ends up in 8 turn drives. Personally i find that I very rarely score before turn 8 unless things are going really badly or extremely well. It is the ratio between turn 8 scores and forced "early" scores I would like to change. Specifically I would like to give breaking abilities to some strength skills to give some extra options on defensive plays.
Something like this:
Break Tackle
(Strength)
The player may use his Strength instead of his Agility when making a Dodge roll or he may avoid falling over on a failed dodge ending his action in the square he was dodging to. For example, a player with Strength 4 and Agility 2 would count as having an Agility of 4 when making a Dodge roll. This skill may only be used once per turn.
Multiple Block
(Strength)
On a Block Action the player may choose to throw two blocks, one after the other, and he is allowed to follow up on the first before making the second. Make each block in turn as normal except that each defender's strength is increased by 2. Multiple Block can be used instead of Frenzy, but both skills cannot be used together. To have the option to throw the second block the player must still be on his feet after the first block.
Grab
(Strength)
A player with this skill uses his great strength and prowess to grab his opponent and throw him around. To represent this, only while making a Block Action, if his block results in a push back he may choose any empty square adjacent to his opponent to push back his opponent. When making a Block or Blitz Action, Grab and Side Step will cancel each other out and the standard pushback rules apply. Grab will not work if there are no empty adjacent squares. Also a player dodging away from the player must subtract one point of MA. A player with the Grab skill can never learn or gain the Frenzy skill through any means. Likewise, a player with the Frenzy skill can never learn or gain the Grab skill through any mean
I think these changes would have a great synergy with applying a +1 modifier for uncontented catch to the Catch skill.
In terms of giving discounts to benched players etc. I am very ambiguous and would be cautious.
Can these changes be said to favor elfs and the like? I very much doubt it.
I am fully aware that this will change balance and there might be several problems in that regard. But I would like to have that discussion. |
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koadah
Joined: Mar 30, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2016 - 12:37 |
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| Tripleskull wrote: | I love grinding Easy-Goo to the ground on an 8 turn drive as much as he seems to enjoy it.
However I find that too many drives ends up in 8 turn drives. Personally i find that I very rarely score before turn 8 unless things are going really badly or extremely well. It is the ratio between turn 8 scores and forced "early" scores I would like to change. Specifically I would like to give breaking abilities to some strength skills to give some extra options on defensive plays.
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The problem isn't the rules. Maybe you are just too good.
126/30/43?
Maybe if you were a mere mortal you would be forced to score early more often.
If things go to plan too often use a crappier team. |
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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Star Bowl - Teams of Stars - 2 more teams needed |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
Apr 29, 2016 - 13:06 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Tripleskull wrote: | I love grinding Easy-Goo to the ground on an 8 turn drive as much as he seems to enjoy it.
However I find that too many drives ends up in 8 turn drives. Personally i find that I very rarely score before turn 8 unless things are going really badly or extremely well. It is the ratio between turn 8 scores and forced "early" scores I would like to change. Specifically I would like to give breaking abilities to some strength skills to give some extra options on defensive plays.
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The problem isn't the rules. Maybe you are just too good.
126/30/43?
Maybe if you were a mere mortal you would be forced to score early more often.
If things go to plan too often use a crappier team. |
I know. That is why it hurts to watch those 30 minor losses and 43 big losses. All because of missclicks.  |
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Zlefin
Joined: Apr 14, 2005
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May 01, 2016 - 04:08 |
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How much of this is a result of perpetual play vs fixed match number leagues?
It's been a long time since I played one of those (back in tabletop); but there it was sometimes worth scoring earlier iirc because SPP/match and team development speed mattered. |
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Traul
Joined: Jun 09, 2013
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May 01, 2016 - 07:12 |
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Even in a perpetual league, development speed would still matter if teams were matched by number of games played instead of TV. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
May 01, 2016 - 08:02 |
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| Tripleskull wrote: | I love grinding Easy-Goo to the ground on an 8 turn drive as much as he seems to enjoy it.
However I find that too many drives ends up in 8 turn drives. Personally i find that I very rarely score before turn 8 unless things are going really badly or extremely well. It is the ratio between turn 8 scores and forced "early" scores I would like to change. Specifically I would like to give breaking abilities to some strength skills to give some extra options on defensive plays.
Something like this:
Break Tackle
(Strength)
The player may use his Strength instead of his Agility when making a Dodge roll or he may avoid falling over on a failed dodge ending his action in the square he was dodging to. For example, a player with Strength 4 and Agility 2 would count as having an Agility of 4 when making a Dodge roll. This skill may only be used once per turn.
Multiple Block
(Strength)
On a Block Action the player may choose to throw two blocks, one after the other, and he is allowed to follow up on the first before making the second. Make each block in turn as normal except that each defender's strength is increased by 2. Multiple Block can be used instead of Frenzy, but both skills cannot be used together. To have the option to throw the second block the player must still be on his feet after the first block.
Grab
(Strength)
A player with this skill uses his great strength and prowess to grab his opponent and throw him around. To represent this, only while making a Block Action, if his block results in a push back he may choose any empty square adjacent to his opponent to push back his opponent. When making a Block or Blitz Action, Grab and Side Step will cancel each other out and the standard pushback rules apply. Grab will not work if there are no empty adjacent squares. Also a player dodging away from the player must subtract one point of MA. A player with the Grab skill can never learn or gain the Frenzy skill through any means. Likewise, a player with the Frenzy skill can never learn or gain the Grab skill through any mean
I think these changes would have a great synergy with applying a +1 modifier for uncontented catch to the Catch skill.
In terms of giving discounts to benched players etc. I am very ambiguous and would be cautious.
Can these changes be said to favor elfs and the like? I very much doubt it.
I am fully aware that this will change balance and there might be several problems in that regard. But I would like to have that discussion. |
I'm not opposed to those changes, indeed I liked how BT worked in LRB4, and making Multiblock actually useful would be a good change, even if it still only lives on big guys (though how it would work with Frenzy is problematic). Making grab slow down elfs is fine too.
And yes, those changes certainly don't help elfs (other than the tree), but I'm not sure they really do enough to make cage teams score more quickly, and they really don't do much at all to change elfs that much, considering elfs don't have to cage anyway. Still I'd be for seeing them implemented if just for the buffs they give to otherwise underwhelming skills. |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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| Posted:
May 01, 2016 - 08:29 |
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Strength skills are already the best set in the game. Making them better makes Chorfs and Lizards and Nurgs better, who are already the best teams. So, no.
Like, Break Tackle is really good for all the clumsy guys, it doesn't need to be better, Grab is there to counter sidestep and even surf them, which it does, while also setting up extra blocks and helping with 1-turn stuff. Multiblock is tricky to use without a team built around it, but it's great for trees and any +st big guy as is.
What the game needs, if anything, is help for the lesser Agility skills, because AG-only teams are all terrible and Elves don't actually win anything of note as it stands because of attrition (even though they win a good few 1-off games while they survive). A lot of agility positionals aren't even taken in various teams, or only one is, because their aren't many useful agility skills to spread around. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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May 01, 2016 - 08:40 |
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These are S skills that are almost never taken. Are you so sure that making S players consider taking something other than MB/PO/Guard is a bad thing? |
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tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
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May 01, 2016 - 09:31 |
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Lots of skills in each group are rarely taken compared to the others, in that a lot of skills only work at all for specific positions (like Kick-Off Return or Pass Block) and specific stat combinations that most players do not have. You'd understand if there are zero elves with Break Tackle, and also zero Multiple Block stunties.
So Break Tackle is really only for reasonably fast players with ST >3 and AG <3, but it's really good for them and I always wish I had more in my Ogre teams for instance, because 3+ into a loose cage for a ST 5 blitz on the ball is amazing for +20 TV.
Similary with multiple block, on fling trees it's amazing, especially if they get Block. I'm not super-concerned if no one else takes it, though I like it on ST 5 for hitting the line too.
Alternately, if you make the skills "worth taking" for Chorfs and Nurgs and Lizards then that means all those teams got better at high TV, where they are already the best teams. It's not that they won't take CPOMB, it's that they'll take CPOMB and also be more mobile and harder to get away from and trivially able to hit multiple players in the same turn. That's nuts. |
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Wreckage
Joined: Aug 15, 2004
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May 01, 2016 - 13:21 |
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| bghandras wrote: | | Endzone wrote: | | Skills should contribute more to TV. If all core skills cost 30TV and minor skills cost 20K that would be a positive change. I agree that cheer leaders and assistant coaches need to be buffed a bit to make the optimum number say 6 or 8 rather than 0. |
This is probably the only comment in this thread that makes sense to me. |
Assistant coaches and cheerleaders are actually not that irrelevant anymore. Their cost is just a little high. Perhaps reduce cheerleader cost to 1 tv at a acquisition cost of 10k and assistant coaches make 5 tv. Although the two have basically the same effect, they don't compete for the same event. So there could be a nice meta in going for 1-2 Assistant coaches while people would probably outcompete each other for mass stacking cheerleaders to no end.
Not claiming this to be a complete idea right now, more like a thought experiment in what direction to think... |
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Tripleskull
Joined: Oct 12, 2003
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| Posted:
May 01, 2016 - 18:54 |
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| licker wrote: | | Tripleskull wrote: | I love grinding Easy-Goo to the ground on an 8 turn drive as much as he seems to enjoy it.
However I find that too many drives ends up in 8 turn drives. Personally i find that I very rarely score before turn 8 unless things are going really badly or extremely well. It is the ratio between turn 8 scores and forced "early" scores I would like to change. Specifically I would like to give breaking abilities to some strength skills to give some extra options on defensive plays.
Something like this:
Break Tackle
(Strength)
The player may use his Strength instead of his Agility when making a Dodge roll or he may avoid falling over on a failed dodge ending his action in the square he was dodging to. For example, a player with Strength 4 and Agility 2 would count as having an Agility of 4 when making a Dodge roll. This skill may only be used once per turn.
Multiple Block
(Strength)
On a Block Action the player may choose to throw two blocks, one after the other, and he is allowed to follow up on the first before making the second. Make each block in turn as normal except that each defender's strength is increased by 2. Multiple Block can be used instead of Frenzy, but both skills cannot be used together. To have the option to throw the second block the player must still be on his feet after the first block.
Grab
(Strength)
A player with this skill uses his great strength and prowess to grab his opponent and throw him around. To represent this, only while making a Block Action, if his block results in a push back he may choose any empty square adjacent to his opponent to push back his opponent. When making a Block or Blitz Action, Grab and Side Step will cancel each other out and the standard pushback rules apply. Grab will not work if there are no empty adjacent squares. Also a player dodging away from the player must subtract one point of MA. A player with the Grab skill can never learn or gain the Frenzy skill through any means. Likewise, a player with the Frenzy skill can never learn or gain the Grab skill through any mean
I think these changes would have a great synergy with applying a +1 modifier for uncontented catch to the Catch skill.
In terms of giving discounts to benched players etc. I am very ambiguous and would be cautious.
Can these changes be said to favor elfs and the like? I very much doubt it.
I am fully aware that this will change balance and there might be several problems in that regard. But I would like to have that discussion. |
I'm not opposed to those changes, indeed I liked how BT worked in LRB4, and making Multiblock actually useful would be a good change, even if it still only lives on big guys (though how it would work with Frenzy is problematic). Making grab slow down elfs is fine too.
And yes, those changes certainly don't help elfs (other than the tree), but I'm not sure they really do enough to make cage teams score more quickly, and they really don't do much at all to change elfs that much, considering elfs don't have to cage anyway. Still I'd be for seeing them implemented if just for the buffs they give to otherwise underwhelming skills. |
How was Break tackle in LRB 4. I forget. like now with unlimited use?
After talking about it and thinking about it some more I think the break tackle should mean you are placed prone (not standing) but don't turn over on a failed dodge and only be used ones per action. I actually think this would be a skill worth considering even for elves because dodging without risk of a turn over is so powerful.
I can't know how much it would change the length of drives but I think it would have some effect and make some drives more interesting.
I would probably also buff skills like catch, diving catch, sneaky git, pass block and shadowing...
Personally I cage a lot with all kinds of elves but as you say they don't need to cage. I do think they can utilize from both the multiple block skill (with say dauntless and side step) and from the break tackle skill even if they only get part of the ability. The real buff to elves is that you might see less MB, piling on, guard, etc. A change that might help with the quite high attrition level for elves in league play?
About Multiple block and frenzy I think you should be allowed to choose before the first block but not use both. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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| Posted:
May 01, 2016 - 19:12 |
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Stand firm used to keep you upright on failed dodges, with the player's turn ended and you stayed in the same square.
Bring back please. |
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