Dunenzed
Joined: Oct 28, 2011
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 Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 09:59 |
 
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I'm trying very hard not to get sucked down this rabbit hole but as a human coach I'm disgusted this has made it to page 7 without anyone commenting on the Human and Orc Catcher positions. Is a point of MA worth the same as a point of ST in sixth edition? |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 10:02 |
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Right this is getting silly now.
This thread is getting dangerously close to being locked. Keep it on topic or it goes away.
@pac - if you were not planning on answering questions or explaining why you have done or decided on how you have designed the roster as you have why did you make this public? A sensible question from another member deserves you giving a sensible answer, not the garbage you have been spewing.
And before you say it again, I don't need to relax or chill, I'm just trying to help you get this thread back to where it needs to be. I'm beginning to think you aren't actually reading what others are saying.
@everyone else - lets get this back to the initial point of he thread. A proposed new rules set. We've seen them come up before, let's see where it goes.
The ball is in your court people, it's up to you guys now to keep the thread open. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 10:07 |
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| Seany18 wrote: | | In terms of the actual rules it'd be nice if there were some explanations for your changes. For example why 20 player rosters? 16 is rarely utilised. Why have blocker positionals over black orcs and long beards who are in theory the blockers of the team. |
Think about *real* gridiron (do I still get extra credit for knowing to call it that?) for a moment.
In third edition, because of the handicap system, what you really want is an awesome first XI, and then a few back-ups with just the basics to fill in for injuries, etc.
But in gridiron, you have a *squad*. You have offensive and defensive teams. You have teams for special plays. You can *kick for goal*! (Yes, I am one of those crazies who thinks we can bring back full-on kicking rules into the game. Why do you think every team so far has a kicker positional?)
That was second edition. Third edition was way ahead of second edition in terms of mass-market appeal, accessibility, speed of play and so on. It must have been a massive money-spinner for GW at the time, you know?
But now the game belongs to the fans (not to go all White Stripes or anything, but I no more need to consult Jervis Johnson for permission to do things with his stuff than I do Jack White — and I don't actually need to meet *either* guy, because it's not like I want to marry their sister). As fans, we know how smart coaches are, how cool house rules sets can become, how many different real world sports are being teased and flattered by BB (the 3rd ed WEs might as well be a love letter to the classic '70s and '80s Welsh rugby union teams), and so on.
As for Longbeards, they are the oldest dwarves around. Blood Bowl is a young man's game. They must have been very, very drunk when they agreed to be the team's Linemen+Blockers for a while. It's time they put their feet up and went back to the commentary booth.
| Quote: | | Personally I think there is also a big problem with an elf team that has basically 1 of every elf positional on every team with strength access and a claw player to boot. Any 1 of those positionals is good enough to win a game and with easy strength access to attrition players. |
Sure, but stop thinking about what this team would be like if they elfballed forever — as a coach I am as anti-elfball as the come. Please check out my team "Condemned to Death", which became almost the banner team of the anti-elfball elf movement. (But if Rijssiej wants to say he was doing it first, that's fine.  )
No league using these rules is going to tolerate people playing pushball to pump their teams up until they are ready to dominate a tournament (PeteW, I hope you have got that phase out of your system — there is nothing ultimate about you and your players are not superheroes …).
Now imagine *running* one of these teams. Do your own maths, take 1000K, buy some elves, see what you can actually afford and think about what's actually likely to happen. You will play Undead first game and they will butcher you …
| Quote: | | I'd be interested to see the Skaven roster under this change as i think this sort of merge of the 2 styles (ag4 and S access) makes skaven obsolete |
Skaven always have more secret weapons …
You may have noticed the Warlock who has decided to play Blood Bowl. Hypnotic Gaze on the roster? I think a few coaches are going to have to start thinking out of the box and beyond the cage …
Meanwhile, in Skavenblight (aka Massilia, aka Marseilles, aka Zizou is always watching …), the grey rats are stirring. They *always* have another plan!
The Wood Elves, the Skaven … and now the Sea Elves. All competing. All with the need for speed. They don't want to "one-turn". That is for scrubs. We play in Nizza, where it is nice and there is always pizza, and we play on very long beaches on the beach-a.
When we suggest longer pitches to the others, they panic. The Orcs complain that they are very afraid of this ball, because it has spikes on, and very afraid of the enemy, because they might be using Guard too. They don't like running long distances at all and they are afraid that they will never score again. 
From the Promenade des Anglaises, we reply, elves and rats in an unexpected harmony (it's almost as though Lorien and Skavenblight *really* like each other …), "Come on, Orc boyz. Your girls are playing again — they are the catchers. Orcs are allowed to be hot again. Check out all that WoW porn. Come out and play — we gonna have a good time tonight. =)"
This was your scheduled message from . The Grey Seers .
0–1 of us may take to the pitch some time soon. Wouldn't you like to know what its stats and skills are going to be? (Though clearly, it's the Leader of the pac(k).)
But a little WE fanboi like me can do a lot of things without a care in the world, but posting a Skaven list is not something you do without thorough consultation (via the Thebans and Delphi, as is customary).
Excuse us, we need to re-read the Konrad books from the skaven PoV. What is David Ferring doing right now …? |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 10:09 |
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| easilyamused wrote: | | @pac - if you were not planning on answering questions or explaining why you have done or decided on how you have designed the roster as you have why did you make this public? |
I am answering questions and I am explaining, but it is difficult when I am under a torrential trolling and flaming attack.
What do you expect from me under these conditions, exactly? Should I GFI?
| Quote: | | A sensible question from another member deserves you giving a sensible answer, not the garbage you have been spewing. |
As a moderator, you are obliged to be polite. I know Christer very well. Please keep your cool.
Ban me if you like. *If you are lucky* I will deign to return. |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 10:10 |
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| Dunenzed wrote: | | I'm trying very hard not to get sucked down this rabbit hole but as a human coach I'm disgusted this has made it to page 7 without anyone commenting on the Human and Orc Catcher positions. Is a point of MA worth the same as a point of ST in sixth edition? |
Very good question.
Please do some hard player-to-player cost analysis comparisons for me. I would love it. <3
How far does a Gold Crown go these days in Altdorf anyway? |
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pac
Joined: Oct 03, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 10:12 |
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| PainState wrote: | | Iam all in on a FUMBBL rule set and let GW rules die by the wayside. |
Thank you, PainState. I am a fan of your work.
(Are you the kind of guy who plays Alpha Centauri with nerve clamping always on …?)
What's your favourite roster (real or imagined) at the moment? I will remix them next …
This will be my last desperate defence of the ring for a little while, because I am tired of cleaning house around here like I am The Rock in the Attitude Era.
I am off to the sea-side. … There may be rats … |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 10:20 |
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Hmmmm... I saw this and though, "cool, I wonder what ideas they'll suggest".
The only idea so far seems to be pac having to justify himself for having fun with a fun side project. I'm a little bit disappointed. |
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cdassak
Joined: Oct 23, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 10:21 |
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Curious to see the Goblin roster. Maybe introduce a new secret weapon? Can never have enough of those |
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sonrises
Joined: May 02, 2013
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 11:12 |
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Hi all,
We have been running a league where we have tweaked rules and rosters here in FUMBBL (as much as we could figure out, using existing client options-thx christer & co for setting these options up-) for over 2 years now and a couple of hundreds games played.
*Be aware hidden publicity below*
ALL STARS
One thing that catched my eye from this thread is the extended rosters to 20 players.
Extended rosters is sth we have been using in ALL STARS all over these years. Let me share our experience with this. Hope, someone find it intereting.
HOW DO WE APPLY EXTENDED ROSTERS IN ALL STARS:
1. ALL STARS rosters are made up of minimum 11 players + 2 STAR PLAYERS. This make a minimum of 13 players rosters and a max of 16 players per team.
2. In addition to this, all teams are given for free 2 babes + 1 apo/igor. I mention this as it is relevant to roster length or better, roster durability. In other words, 13 players roster minimum and far more durable than in CRP.
THE OUTCOME of using extended rosters:
Bight side:
1. Very rare a team can win only relying in bashing. Teams may be outnumbered one drive but very rare they are outnunbered for an entire game. This adds a lot to keep the game fun for both coaches. If you are not outnumbered, you keep your hopes of turning the score around. Your team remains competitive throughout the whole game. Another thing is...if NUFFLE likes you or not, but this is a religious discussion, not a rules one
2. Ok then, If bashers do not bash, then they are in a disadvantage against ballers...true or not? After 200 games played, we couldn't see this trend happen. Bashers still bash and win...or lose. They bash a drive and score a TD. If they make a good defense, game in the pocket!
3. Choice of skills and roster build ups widen. This is another interesting trend we have observed.
2 babes + apo help a lot to minimise injures (we still have injuries/deaths in all stars but at a lower rate-heaven for pixel huggers!-) although all star games are very bloody.
Once coaches realises that players turn around rate is much lower than usual, they tend to try more often specialist skills and rare build ups. Example: bashers teams take balling skills insted of just C-POMB to compensate lack of these skills. As their rosters are long and durable, the investment is worth.
4. TV difference matters much less. This has been quite surprising and interesting.
Longer rosters allow for teams fielding almost every drive 11 players. Heavy TV teams are forced to keep lots of skills/money in the bench!!!
(Potential) Dark side:
1. Long rosters benefit elf-ball teams. I have to say, this has NOT happen in those 200 games played in all star but it is sth we keep a close eye on it, as it makes sense from a theoretical point of view that this may happen. So far, it is not the case but the danger is there, theoretically.
@pac. I don't know if 20 is the right number. Here our experience...
and please, you need to chill out a bit too.
Good luck with your project. |
Last edited by sonrises on %b %16, %2016 - %11:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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easilyamused
Joined: Jun 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 11:20 |
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I think you missed my point pac, I want this to get back to being an interesting thread.
You have some interesting ideas and I want to see how they pan out but you have got caught in a defensive cycle. Get back to posting rosters and the modified rules.
Controversial ideas will always generate debate and questions. Answer them in a calm and controlled way, stop accusing everyone of trolling you and carry on having fun with your project.
Once L has finished having its overhaul you can then test them and you might get another L up and running to rival what WIL has become. But getting sucked into arguments will not help you get there.
Take a breath and get back to what you started.
And not once have I threatened a ban anywhere, stopping reading into things too much. That way lies madness. |
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The_Great_Gobbo
Joined: Aug 04, 2014
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Apr 16, 2016 - 11:25 |
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If the Old World is back at war then why are they still playing blood bowl? In WW1 and 2 yes some domestic leagues were kept going to boost morale but they were not official and there were no European cups or tournaments (association football i'm on about). 2nd edition (and every edition since as far as I know) states that blood bowl was used instead of war.
Also the 'we invented the game and so must be good at it' argument is totally flawed, as every Englishman should know (e.g Brazil football, Australia cricket, New Zealand rugby etc etc).
Finally take a moment to stop blowing your own trumpet and listen to the conductor. The main thrust of this thread has been to make BB more fun. Fun is subjective. I role play being a goblin coaching an all goblin lineman team for fun. My choice. If you force everybody to do the same it will not be fun for everyone. Want to create your own ruleset to make the game more fun for yourself and others with a similar mindset? Great, good for you but don't try to ram it down our throats as the only option. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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| The_Great_Gobbo wrote: | | If the Old World is back at war then why are they still playing blood bowl? In WW1 and 2 yes some domestic leagues were kept going to boost morale but they were not official and there were no European cups or tournaments (association football i'm on about). 2nd edition (and every edition since as far as I know) states that blood bowl was used instead of war. |
This was my initial thinking too. The Blood bowl old world diverged from the WHFB old world a long time ago because they don't really 'fit' well together. Changing the established fluff but keeping it making sense will be a challenge. |
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Seany18
Joined: Mar 12, 2016
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| Posted:
Apr 16, 2016 - 12:43 |
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[quote="pac"]
| Quote: |
In third edition, because of the handicap system, what you really want is an awesome first XI, and then a few back-ups with just the basics to fill in for injuries etc
But in gridiron, you have a *squad*. You have offensive and defensive teams. You have teams for special plays. You can *kick for goal*! (Yes, I am one of those crazies who thinks we can bring back full-on kicking rules into the game. Why do you think every team so far has a kicker positional?) |
so everyone has a load of players. Again I see this favouring the elves av7 against attrition
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| Quote: |
Now imagine *running* one of these teams. Do your own maths, take 1000K, buy some elves, see what you can actually afford and think about what's actually likely to happen. You will play Undead first game and they will butcher you … |
So if you're the elves you can't run the big squad everyone else does? Or do you just have to get 15 players with only 4 positionals? I can see people taking the bare 11 to get all the positionals tbh. I don't think undead would butcher you either tbh you have a war dancer a witch elf a blitzer a thrower (if the prices are high as you say I doubt anyone will take this guy over any of the other amazing positionals) and catcher (who has claw?) Not to mention that then makes most of your team ma7+ I think this team will run rings around the humans or orcs which is all we have to go off so far (the undead may be even stronger than this team!?)
| Quote: |
The Wood Elves, the Skaven … and now the Sea Elves. All competing. All with the need for speed. They don't want to "one-turn". That is for scrubs. ? |
Well the sea elves have an ma9 player how are they not going to one turn? |
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PaddyMick
Joined: Jan 03, 2012
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Apr 16, 2016 - 13:55 |
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Hi Pac. Have you got a first draft of the new ruleset done yet? If so please post a link. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 16, 2016 - 16:28 |
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CRP is basically BB-11s.
Some kind souls provide us with BB-7s.
Pac want's to make BB-13s (or 15s).
Which is great, as I and others have said many times before. Explain your rules (still haven't bothered to do this), give the rosters (still haven't finished this), and see where it goes.
The only issue anyone really has is with the attitude that FUMBBL is dead and only the great and mighty pac can save it. You have a vision for what would make BB more fun for you. Wonderful, I truly don't care what makes it more fun for you, it's irrelevant.
Just stick to explaining your new system and drop all the inferiority baggage you seem to carry. I'm betting heavily that you can't do either, but maybe you'll surprise me.
Anyway, making all these teams with all these positionals, who basically just copy each other for skills with a point of armor or movement less here and there, doesn't seem very interesting at all. It's just the same rosters with different skins.
But then you throw out this insane elf roster which can do everything and just wave your hands about at 1000k no one can afford it. Are we also to assume you want non-progression as part of your rules? 100k per positional when there are basically only 5 you are going to use is essentially how DE are done now. Sure, you start with 4 and fill with line elfs, but your line elfs are actually cheaper than DE line elfs, so I see no reason why sea elfs can't start with 5, yes your rerolls are 70k, however you save 60k on the six line elfs you start with, so at least for starting with 2 rerolls (or maybe three) there is absolutely no issue.
Then we look at dwarfs. Clearly the least interesting and most underpowered roster you've shared this far. Only 6 S access players (I don't count the giant slayer, basically a useless roster spot that is, dauntless on ST4 when no other rosters have ST5 anyway? Took away frenzy which is actually the only reason to take the troll slayers in the first place too, though on MA4 frenzy is not that interesting anyway.) Doesn't spam tackle anymore, at least they start with 4 guard though, but otherwise slow, lacks S access to make their line men interesting and basically doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities to make you want them over anything else.
Well 40k rerolls I guess, lets you play an AV9 team with a big bench. lol... Maybe have all the line men start with dirty player then, at least that would be something. Though the line men also cost 70k! More than elfs.
And the hint that Undead will be elf slayers? You going to put tackle on the zombies? Give ghouls a special skill that reads 'when you block an elf player kill it'? Or just have some bit in your rules that says when elfs play undead they can only field 8 players per drive?
Because the thing is you mentioned that you were going to bring back DP with the +2 (and whether anyone thinks that's a good idea or not is beside the point for now). You give elfs cheap line men too (60k is cheap for elfs, yep), so the elfs are going to spam it as well.
Back to the days of the eye too? For some that was better than CRP, but it's not as though it wasn't without its share of issues. Especially when everyone is running a deep bench, the entire game is going to revolve around fouling out the other side.
Also did you mention making the pitch longer to stop one turns? (might have been someone else). If so, another nail in the dwarf coffin and another plus to the speedier elfs. Interestingly though, a cool rule would be for home field to actually matter, so maybe the teams could pick how big they want the pitch to actually be. Say dwarfs could play on a shorter/smaller pitch, or elfs could have a bigger one. Though the shorter ones would make one turning trivial for MA9 I suppose. Maybe affect the width then, dwarfs would do better if they didn't have to cover as much lateral space, and elfs would get bottled in and have to find ways through a packed defense. |
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