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straume



Joined: Dec 01, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2016 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Chin up, pac. Try and mentally filter out posts that bug you. This is the Internet.

As for the rules, Two main points:

1) Sea Elves-roster seem way stronger than the rest. Is this a wanted game design or do you disagree?

You asked for a 1 mill gp roster. Okay, lets squeeze in those awesome positionals:

1 Wardancer 100K 8 3 4 7 Block, Leap GA
1 Witch Elf 100K 7 3 4 7 Frenzy, Jump Up GAS
1 Glade Runner 100K 9 3 4 7 Dodge, Sure Hands GA
1 Lion Warrior 100K 8 3 4 7 Catch, Claw GA
1 Dragon Warrior 100K 8 3 4 7 Block GA
1 Kicker 70K 6 3 4 7 Kick GA
5 linemen 300K
1 reroll 70K
1 apo 50K
1 FF

1 reroll is a bit ligth, but with sure hands, dodge and 2 block players this team would be...decent.


2) Avoid one-turning

You talked about lengthening the pitch to avoid 1TTD. This might be all well, but a longer pitch would actually benefit the faster teams. Is this your intention, or do you disagree?
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 18, 2016 - 13:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Pac, please can we move on now.

I get why you appear hurt by reactions on here but try to understand how you came (back) in.

1)Saying that fumbbl is dying - That's going to get people's backs up right away.
2)You haven't been around for the last 4 years.
3)Your fun is not everyone's fun.
4)It's great that you did a lot for the site and people are thankful for it but time moves on.
5)Some coaches have commented on your rosters and you have not taken the comments well.

Believe me, I'm not a doom bringer. I try to respect all coaches. Please be clear on what you want from the community.

I think you have some great ideas! So let's get back to that with all of us having a decent attitude.

Just trying to help.

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pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 14:37 Reply with quote Back to top

straume wrote:
Try and mentally filter out posts that bug you.

Why should I need to?

Ignore lists are a thing that exists. Alternatively, good admins would just clean up all the junk and hand out a few bans to people who seem to think they are untouchable at the moment.

These forums, socially, look to be in a dire state. IRC is even worse, as no one ever talks there *at all*, as far as I've seen!

Don't try to imply that all the internet is like this. There are plenty of well-ordered sites out there (probably including plenty where they will be happy to talk BB without any nutcase screaming "Sacrilege!!!1one").

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straume



Joined: Dec 01, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 14:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Well...as long as you seem more interested in discussing the discussion/the forum/the state of IRC and fumbbl than the actual rules/rosters I am afraid I will lose interest.
pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 14:47 Reply with quote Back to top

straume wrote:
1) Sea Elves-roster seem way stronger than the rest. Is this a wanted game design or do you disagree?

I do disagree.

Thanks for actually building a roster! Very Happy

That squad is *all* AV 7. You only have one re-roll! You only have two players with Block. Your team is going to get *butchered*. We must assume an environment where you can't just avoid facing teams that can dish out the dirt until you've stabilised your roster a bit.

In addition, the economy is going to be more like classic third edition than recent LRBs: you are going to want FF 9.

Quote:
You talked about lengthening the pitch to avoid 1TTD. This might be all well, but a longer pitch would actually benefit the faster teams. Is this your intention, or do you disagree?

Well, a longer pitch certainly hurts *highly conservative* caging. But if you struggle to move the ball down the length of the current pitch, in 8 turns, by caging, then I'm afraid you just can't be a very good coach. In my rules set, all teams are getting improved ball-playing options — again, note the Orc Catchers. A default play for Orcs would be to use caging as the primary approach, but always with the threat of a Catcher or two (plus support), ready to switch flanks if space opens up or there is no other good option, or no time, left.

I do not like OTSing at all. It is no fun, in a turn-based game, when you have no opportunity at all to respond to your opponent's move. I would prefer that the *only* way to do it was Throw Team-mate. But the only way to achieve that would be to hack all kinds of MA scores way down — and even then, Norse coaches will point out that (in the right circumstances) it's possible for them to OTS with MA 6 …

What I'd actually prefer is for it to be like association football, where the size of pitches *varies* (with certain minimums/maximums). When creating your team, you would set up the width and length of your pitch, used when you are the "home" team, and you would be able to adjust it every 10 games or so, perhaps. Unorthodox, but not difficult at all for a client designer to set up, I would think.

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pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Throweck wrote:
1)Saying that fumbbl is dying - That's going to get people's backs up right away.

Well, I'm afraid it is, from my PoV.

IRC is silent. (Even BowlBot is not allowed to have fun there. Sad) The forums see very little of note. The archive of the forums does not go back that far, so many classic threads are just lost to us (unless Christer has some secret back-ups somewhere …).

I am sure the New Guard feel that this is still a great place to play BB, and they may well be right. But it is a pale shadow of what FUMBBL was like 10 years ago. It was a very dynamic place then!

Quote:
2)You haven't been around for the last 4 years.

Yes, and usually the reaction would be, "Welcome home!" Not a Campaign of Hate.

Quote:
3)Your fun is not everyone's fun.

I don't wander into other people's threads and tell them they are doing fun wrong (or at least, it's been a long time since I did! XD). If you don't like what's someone's doing, but it's not illegal, then ignore it and move on. For some reason, the admins here don't put a stop to thread-crapping (and even teeter on the edge of applauding it). Yet another sign of the decline of FUMBBL, I'm afraid. Sad

Quote:
4)It's great that you did a lot for the site and people are thankful for it but time moves on.

What is this meant to mean? "You are an old man and no one cares about your opinions"? Thanks for the insult. Are you done now?

Quote:
5)Some coaches have commented on your rosters and you have not taken the comments well.

The main comment that I've noticed has been freaking out about Sea Elves, because they are imagining what they would be like in the worst of all elfballing worlds.

Has anyone stopped for a moment to say, "Yes! Finally! Orc Catchers! Human Blockers! Why were they ever taken away? This could be real Blood Bowl again! Very Happy"

Edit: On Sea Elves — maybe they are too good. But it is a first draft! The final roster will still look something like what they are now. But they are bound to change somewhere down the line.

At the moment, we are not interested in boring game design concepts like "balance" and "overpoweredness". It is all Rule of Cool all the time, y'know? Plenty of time to talk about "tiers" and things like that later, if you like. Smile

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pac



Joined: Oct 03, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 14:59 Reply with quote Back to top

straume wrote:
Well...as long as you seem more interested in discussing the discussion/the forum/the state of IRC and fumbbl than the actual rules/rosters I am afraid I will lose interest.

I will post some more rules soon — and not another roster, but one of the keys to making this rules set distinctive and excitingly different to coach a team under.

But as for right now, I must admit, my feelings are still hurt. Sad So I am going to do other things for a couple of days and post here later in the hope that the people who have just put me on their "must hate" list for some reason will have crawled back into their holes …

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 15:01 Reply with quote Back to top

This is getting interesting. Some random thoughts:
1. Longer pitch is actually something.
2. The elf team posted above is not optimal, could be much better. Also the above is not very strong imho.
3. I would not mind having so many positionals on the teams, but in order to acheive ACTUAL VARIETY, you need to be spot on with prices. The weak options will be never used. If there are 1-2-3 great positionals, the rest wont be used. Again, pricing is critical, and you should not sit back at historical prices, but should look hard at minmaxing teams in the box, and price accordingly, to make the positionals equally useful on any given roster. (Or at least for the options you REALLY like to promote.)

I am pretty sure that 10k increments would be not good for that. Maybe 5k, but maybe that is also too big to do it right.

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Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 15:27 Reply with quote Back to top

pac wrote:
Throweck wrote:
1)Saying that fumbbl is dying - That's going to get people's backs up right away.

Well, I'm afraid it is, from my PoV.

IRC is silent. (Even BowlBot is not allowed to have fun there. Sad) The forums see very little of note. The archive of the forums does not go back that far, so many classic threads are just lost to us (unless Christer has some secret back-ups somewhere …).

I am sure the New Guard feel that this is still a great place to play BB, and they may well be right. But it is a pale shadow of what FUMBBL was like 10 years ago. It was a very dynamic place then!

Quote:
2)You haven't been around for the last 4 years.

Yes, and usually the reaction would be, "Welcome home!" Not a Campaign of Hate.

Quote:
3)Your fun is not everyone's fun.

I don't wander into other people's threads and tell them they are doing fun wrong (or at least, it's been a long time since I did! XD). If you don't like what's someone's doing, but it's not illegal, then ignore it and move on. For some reason, the admins here don't put a stop to thread-crapping (and even teeter on the edge of applauding it). Yet another sign of the decline of FUMBBL, I'm afraid. Sad

Quote:
4)It's great that you did a lot for the site and people are thankful for it but time moves on.

What is this meant to mean? "You are an old man and no one cares about your opinions"? Thanks for the insult. Are you done now?

Quote:
5)Some coaches have commented on your rosters and you have not taken the comments well.

The main comment that I've noticed has been freaking out about Sea Elves, because they are imagining what they would be like in the worst of all elfballing worlds.

Has anyone stopped for a moment to say, "Yes! Finally! Orc Catchers! Human Blockers! Why were they ever taken away? This could be real Blood Bowl again! Very Happy"

Edit: On Sea Elves — maybe they are too good. But it is a first draft! The final roster will still look something like what they are now. But they are bound to change somewhere down the line.

At the moment, we are not interested in boring game design concepts like "balance" and "overpoweredness". It is all Rule of Cool all the time, y'know? Plenty of time to talk about "tiers" and things like that later, if you like. Smile


How was that an insult? This is what I mean. It was a genuine thank you which you have decided to take as an insult. Honestly, if I wanted to insult you I would but I don't really care enough no after trying to help you understand on how your return to the community is being perceived by a good amount of people is my guess.

I even sent you a pm to try and start a conversation with you!

You seem incredibly hard to reason with. There is some good advice in your response that perhaps you should take on board. We are not all out to get you pac, even us new guard.

Your perceptions are quite frankly wrong and I think you are the one who needs to 'chill'.

Maybe because I don't like what you wrote about my last post means I should feel sorry for myself and go away for a bit and wallow in self pity.

Can you honestly not see that some of your posts have been quite hostile towards this community from the beginning. All of which are opinions NOT facts.

Anyway about the rosters...

You know what...I can't be arsed.

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 15:41 Reply with quote Back to top

This all comes down to attitude. You trash everything Pac, then are suprised when people don't like it. You then moan the admins don't ban hammer people for saying they don't like how you have approached this followed by another dig at the site and then play the victim like everybody and their mothers are out to get you including the admins.

The forum experiance and how people act is usuay fine, this all started because of how you acted right from the op in your first thread. Followed by you being far too sensitive as people express their right to call your behaviour into question. Anybody would think people here were threatening to kill your familly with some of the links you have posted. Acting like you have from the start rubs people up the wrong way, they then don't like you and are not in the mindset to give your ideas a fair listening. Be a bit more humble and a bit less crying wolf then I am sure your idea and yourself will get a better reaction and a better hearing.

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cdassak



Joined: Oct 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 15:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Pac I think you need a break from FUMBBL mate, been there so I feel you.

Just make it longer that 4 years this time Razz

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 16:37 Reply with quote Back to top

pac wrote:

That squad is *all* AV 7. You only have one re-roll! You only have two players with Block. Your team is going to get *butchered*. We must assume an environment where you can't just avoid facing teams that can dish out the dirt until you've stabilised your roster a bit.


You've not provided a roster that can dish out the dirt at low TV yet though, so what is anyone supposed to assume?

pac wrote:
In addition, the economy is going to be more like classic third edition than recent LRBs: you are going to want FF 9.


And again... if you had actually a comprehensive rule set to present much of this discussion wouldn't be happening. But because you are presenting an entire system piece meal no one really has anything to go on other than what they already know. People have asked you (some of them quite nicely) to stop with the rosters and present your rules first so that the rosters can be judged accordingly. Failing to do this simply continues to invite 'unwarranted criticism'. From your point of view, but since no one here has any idea what you are actually talking about, your proposals do simply look as though you are pulling them out of your ass for the hell of it.

pac wrote:

Well, a longer pitch certainly hurts *highly conservative* caging. But if you struggle to move the ball down the length of the current pitch, in 8 turns, by caging, then I'm afraid you just can't be a very good coach. In my rules set, all teams are getting improved ball-playing options — again, note the Orc Catchers. A default play for Orcs would be to use caging as the primary approach, but always with the threat of a Catcher or two (plus support), ready to switch flanks if space opens up or there is no other good option, or no time, left.


Do you like even play blood bowl? I get what you're going for but realistically a longer pitch is a disaster for the rosters you've presented (other than elves who will have even more room to protect their positionals). Unless you just want a much more chaotic game, and if so, fair enough. Expect resistance on that though, it is ultimately personal preference, but frankly, your dwarf roster on a longer pitch is just dead.

pac wrote:
I do not like OTSing at all. It is no fun, in a turn-based game, when you have no opportunity at all to respond to your opponent's move. I would prefer that the *only* way to do it was Throw Team-mate. But the only way to achieve that would be to hack all kinds of MA scores way down — and even then, Norse coaches will point out that (in the right circumstances) it's possible for them to OTS with MA 6 …


There is an easy (though it's debatable if it should be desired) way to prevent one turning. Cap movement in a turn at 10 (or 11, or 12), the thing is, chain pushing is used all the time for all kinds of things. Do you really want to remove that as an option?

pac wrote:
What I'd actually prefer is for it to be like association football, where the size of pitches *varies* (with certain minimums/maximums). When creating your team, you would set up the width and length of your pitch, used when you are the "home" team, and you would be able to adjust it every 10 games or so, perhaps. Unorthodox, but not difficult at all for a client designer to set up, I would think.


Yeah, I already proposed this. I don't think it's actually a very good idea though. Much as the dimensions of a base-ball diamond are actually very clever, the dimensions of the blood bowl pitch likewise have an actual reason for their existence. Making them variable, without significantly changing the movement rules and/or the player speeds, is going to open up to a world of cheesed out nonsense.
dode74



Joined: Aug 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 16:58 Reply with quote Back to top

pac wrote:
That squad is *all* AV 7. You only have one re-roll! You only have two players with Block.
Sounds like low TV Wood Elves...
easilyamused



Joined: Jun 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 17:44 Reply with quote Back to top

dode74 wrote:
pac wrote:
That squad is *all* AV 7. You only have one re-roll! You only have two players with Block.
Sounds like low TV Wood Elves...


I was going to say the exact same thing.....

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Seany18



Joined: Mar 12, 2016

Post   Posted: Apr 19, 2016 - 18:32 Reply with quote Back to top

dode74 wrote:
pac wrote:
That squad is *all* AV 7. You only have one re-roll! You only have two players with Block.
Sounds like low TV Wood Elves...

That's not fair! Sea Elves get more juicy positionals tha wood elves Laughing
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