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Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Development help and critique wanted
After four successful one day tournaments (4*6 games) with rules along these lines
(http://bloodbowl.dk/tournament-overview/price%20tag%202016%20-%20iv.html),
I have made some significant changes to the rule-set.

At this point this is what I have:

http://bloodbowl.dk/tournament-overview/price%20tag%20v%20-%20new%20generation.html

I would love some feed back. Especially on the perceived power level of the races. I am still in the process of adjusting the tiers.

Design
A few remarks about design is in order here I think. Mostly because some of the design decisions are likely to be counterintuitive.

The overall goals
- Make it viable to build a roster with several unusual skills
- Make all races playable in a competitive environment
- Make it as simple as possible while obtaining the two former

Minor goals
-Avoid situations where any skills, stats or combination is always picked or newer picked. (this rule is not absolute)
-Make multiple designs of the different rosters competitive
-Alow combinations of skills with as few restrictions as possible

Anomalies
-A few skills are under priced in order to manipulate the balance between the races. Most notably tackle and sure hands but also some mutations.
-Many skills are much more valuable on a specific player than on other players, say multiple block on an assassin, grab on a WE treeman, pro an vampires etc. These special cases are sometimes countered by counterintuitive pricing.

Feed back subjects
As mentioned my main problems right now are what tiers the races should be and the pricing of stats. So input as to what races are strongest and what races are weakest are much appreciated.

Starplayers
On a side note I am considering allowing starplayers. Thoughts on this are also appreciated.

Rosters
If you are interested I can send you some rosters that I have made to get a sense of the strength of the races for comparison.

Your Tournament
Should you be interested in using the rules at your own tournament you are most welcome to do so and I would like to hear from you.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 14:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Instead of stars, i suggest to use the base price everywhere, and tax an additional incremental 10k for each skill beyond the 1st.

So lets say a player has
1 skill (level ups), then no incemental cost
2 skills, then 10k incremental cost
3 skills, then 20k incremental cost
to reflect that the skills can be synergistic.

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BlodgeyDocker



Joined: Jul 22, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 14:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Looks good.

I'm worried about your tiers though Very Happy

Looks like a lot of great races in tier 3 to me....
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post 7 Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 14:30 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Instead of stars, i suggest to use the base price everywhere, and tax an additional incremental 10k for each skill beyond the 1st.

So lets say a player has
1 skill (level ups), then no incemental cost
2 skills, then 10k incremental cost
3 skills, then 20k incremental cost
to reflect that the skills can be synergistic.


Ass most people do when they see this you are trying to fix the rules rather than evaluate them. Your suggestion would have enormous effect on balance so any consideration of balance in the two systems would have to be separate.
I have and will consider what you are proposing but what of the skills that are not very synergistic and what about skills that are problematic when spammed but not worth much individually? Smile
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 14:35 Reply with quote Back to top

BlodgeyDocker wrote:
Looks good.

I'm worried about your tiers though Very Happy

Looks like a lot of great races in tier 3 to me....


I was also worried about this but of the players I have asked so far everyone has said that Chaos, Nurgle and Slann will stills struggle even in tier 3. I agree with you on this, so it is good to hear your point of view. I might aply a better safe than sorry approach and move them back to tier 2 but it depends on the feed back I get.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 15:23
FUMBBL Staff
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I prefer your new pricing of stats to your old one. The old one seems too expensive.

I'll preface my feedback with the fact that I don't have a lot of resurrection format experience, so my advice isn't necessarily good and is based more on 'gut feeling' Razz

Things that stand out on the team list:
I don't get why lizards are at one end and Chaos/Nurgle at the other when both are teams that need skills to be effective. Are Lizards such a great rookie team?

I'd probably think more like this:
Tier 0
Dark Elf
Undead
Wood Elf
Orc
Dwarf
Skaven
Amazon

Tier 1
Norse
Chaos Dwarf
Necromantic
Elf
High Elf

Tier 2
Lizardmen
Pact
Human
Khemri
Chaos
Nurgle
Slann
Underworld
Vampire

Tier 3
Goblin#
Ogre#
Halfling#


Something like that. A few I'm not 100% on, though.

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Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 15:57 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:

Things that stand out on the team list:
I don't get why lizards are at one end and Chaos/Nurgle at the other when both are teams that need skills to be effective. Are Lizards such a great rookie team?


Thank you for your feed back.

Gut feeling is fine. It takes time to do the roster building required even for a seasoned TT-tournament player to do real comparisons. I think I'll have an excel sheet ready soon that will make roster building easy with automated calculations. I would be very happy if people would try to build the best roster possible with any given race and tell me if it is competitive/over powered. Compaer to WEs, they are always at the top of the food chain in tournament play, and not least in these rules. They are the sole reason of many "special" rules. Smile

If you can't wait for the automated roster use this for now. http://bloodbowl.dk/tools.html

I'll look in to your tier suggestions.

Ir regards to lizardmen I consider them one of the best rookie teams and in tournament play they benefit from being able to skill sauruses and not skill skinks. That being said I am seriously considering moving them to tier 1, but not tier 2. They can benefit a lot from skills like kick, break tackle, shadowing etc. and is a top 4 powerhouse to begin with.

The strenght of the chaos teams and slann if one of the main questions. It seems like you would think you are to strong for tier 3?

I have many doubts about these teams:

Dwarf
Skaven
Amazon
Norse
Chaos Dwarf
Necromantic
Elf
High Elf

But I tend to think they are not tier 0 material (norse is giving me a headache). I also tend to think that the elf and HEs are more than 50k worse than the good els teams.
jori3641



Joined: Jan 17, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 19:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Nice. I have been thinking a bit about a similar but simpler rule set (no stacks or stats) as well.

First of all a question:
“* ad 10k to the price for every time you have already picked the skill on your roster”
I interpret that as the first pro cost 10k, the second 20k, the third 30k etctera. Is that what is meant? Also, if my second pro is on a skill stacked player, does it cost 20k or 30k?

Regarding rosters:
Since Amazons and Norse have already have lots of block and dodge, I believe they should be tier 0. Skaven and Dwarf probably as well. I am really unsure about Lizardmen. Necro should probably be tier 1. The wolves really need block or wrestle, so they are not tier 0 and I think they are to good for tier 2. I would put Chaos Pact in tier 2 together with Chaos, Nurgle and Slann. I consider Vampire and Underworld worse than Chaos, Nurgle and Slann.

An idea is to split the tiersystem into 5 tiers instead of 4 with +0k, +40k, +80k, +120k and +160k. That would solve some problems, but create new ones Smile

Regarding skills:
I do not really understand why Leader and Kick-of-Return have a *. They are certainly not great to have on multiple players and I do not see any really strong stack-synergies either. You could consider putting a * on Prehensile Tail. As far as I know it stacks and a team with cheap Tail-spam could become real a pain for some teams, not least the stunties.


Last edited by jori3641 on Apr 20, 2016 - 20:31; edited 2 times in total
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 19:58 Reply with quote Back to top

jori3641 wrote:
Also, if my second pro is on a skill stacked player, does it cost 20k or 30k?


Yes, you are right and 2nd pro is 30k if you stack it. This is to prevent vampires from spamming pro. 10k pro vampires is an autopick and it pushes vampires up one tier, so in order to keep them in tier 2 I put a "*" on pro.

Quote:
Regarding rosters:
Since Amazons and Norse have already have lots of block and dodge, I believe they should be tier 0. Skaven and Dwarf probably as well. I am really unsure about Lizardmen. Necro should probably be tier 1. The wolves really need block or wrestle, so they are not tier 0 and I think they are to good for tier 2. I would put Chaos Pact in tier 2 together with Chaos, Nurgle and Slann. I consider Vampire and Underworld worse than Chaos, Nurgle and Slann.


My intuition tells me the same about norse and zons but when building rosters I feel differently. I would love to hear how you would build these rosters? About the same is true for dwarfs and skaven. I get your point but are they actually good in reality? Dwarfs are hurt a lot by guard*. Other than guard I would say only MB and KoR have real value for dwarfs.
I think you underestimate pact and they get significant value from the cheap mutations and elf can be a monster with stacked skills. I also think you underestimate vampires because they can benifit more from od skills than many other rosters and they actually don't need much block.

I find it notoriously hard to balance stunties so I usually sort of give up on them. I do however believe that they are all much more competitive in these rules than in most others. Smile

Quote:
An idea is to split the tiersystem into 5 tiers instead of 4 with +0k, +40k, +80k, +120k and +160k. That would solve some problems, but create new ones Smile


This might be the way to go.

Quote:

I do not really understand why Leader and Kick-of-Return have a *. They are certainly not great to have on multiple players and I do not see any really strong stack-synergies either. You could consider putting a * on Prehensile Tail. As far as I know it stacks and a team with cheap Tail-spam could become real a pain for some teams, not least the stunties.


If you don't put * on KoR just about every thrower/ball carrier will have it. It is actually a valuable skill. Spamming it is ofcause not an issue bot for simplicity the anti-stacking and tha anti-spamming is the same rule.
Leader is just about the same point. Any team with any kind of thrower will take leader on the first thrower if it does not have *. Now you might need a 2nd thrower or to not take other skills on the thrower. This way you are forced to make choices witch is what I want.


Last edited by Tripleskull on Apr 20, 2016 - 20:49; edited 1 time in total
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2016 - 20:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I have kept the * of prehensile tail since that tail rosters has not proven effective yet and many people still tell me that the chaos team are still to weak with the lack of block access. But is is a skill to keep an eye on.
Tripleskull



Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Post   Posted: Apr 24, 2016 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

http://bloodbowl.dk/tournament-overview/price%20tag%20v%20-%20new%20generation.html

Updated with an extra tier[/url]
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