| Poll |
| How much is removing a negatrait worth? |
| 20k |
|
1% |
[ 1 ] |
| 30k |
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29% |
[ 19 ] |
| 40k |
|
17% |
[ 11 ] |
| 50k |
|
23% |
[ 15 ] |
| 60k |
|
7% |
[ 5 ] |
| an apple pie |
|
20% |
[ 13 ] |
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| Total Votes : 64 |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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 Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 16:33 |
 
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The surge of alternative lrb7 rulesets that have arisen lately bring a bunch of interesting ideas. Among them all, bringing back the possibility to remove a negatrait from a Big Guy (in WhatBall's rulebook) got me thinking.
Even if none of these rulebooks makes it out of their respective creators' homes, an eventual [L] division reform may give league admins the power to enable this kind of feature. What would be the TV cost for this skill roll?
If I recall correctly, back in the day (3rd Ed.), you could remove a negatrait on a double roll. Back then, skills didn't have a cost attached since a player value was calculated through his total spp, and not by the number or quality of his skills. Single, double, stats or negatrait removal were all the same. The TV system brought a whole new way of looking at how we assign skills according to ther TV-cost/effectiveness (something I'm personally not too fond of).
In WhatBall's rules, negatrait removal is worth 60k, which I believe it's too expensive, and it's only available on a roll of 6+6. So it's essentially fighting against block/tackle/pro at 30TV and +ST at 50TV. I for one wouldn't find it attractive to get rid of Bone-head for the double of the cost of block, but I can't figure out the vale of removing a negatrait instead of adding a skill. Mind that in WB's rules, big guys are still loners.
If I ran a league with this option, I would rate it at 30TV and maybe make it a more common occurance, like 5+5 and 6+6, or even a regular double.
Thoughts? |
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tmoila
Joined: Nov 25, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 16:37 |
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Way more than doubles but not more than +ST. So I would say 50k. |
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Diddyboy
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 16:41 |
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Depends on if you can remove any negatrait. I would remove loner on a ogre before i removed bonehead. i would price it the same as +st so 40k. And the ability to remove on any double |
Last edited by Diddyboy on %b %21, %2016 - %16:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 16:43 |
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| Diddyboy wrote: | | Depends on if you can remove any negatrait. I would remove loner on a ogre before i removed bonehead. i would prics it the same as +st so 40k. And the ability to remove on any double |
Would you remove Loner before taking block, or maybe as a second double? |
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Nextflux
Joined: Jan 22, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 17:02 |
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Loner for example works in a similar way like pro, although pro is a general skill, available to most for 20k, Loner being a negatrait should cost same as a double.
No other positive skills is worth more than a double, so I would go for 30k for negatrait. |
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xnoelx
Joined: Jun 05, 2012
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 17:09 |
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Removing Loner changes a 2d Block-less block from 11% fail (no rr use) to 2% fail (with team rr).
Adding Block instead changes that 2d block to a 3% fail (no rr use).
So removing Loner is very slightly better for an offensive Block, assuming you have (and are willing to use) a team RR. Removing Loner also allows you to rr other actions: BT Dodges, handoffs, etc. So it's definitely better than Block (and by extension, any other double skill).
But I think at 50k it would be overpriced and often ignored. 40k for me.
(Yes, I've ignored trying to rr with Loner skill, or comparison with Pro, 3d blocks, etc. Just a ballpark figure kinda analysis to put it in some context.) |
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 Nerf Ball 2014 |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 17:14 |
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I prefer "Pro and Loner cancel each other." |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 17:17 |
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What about Wild Animal? I'm not sure which one is worse between WA and Loner.
Anyway, I was referring more to Bone-head, Really Stupid and Wild animal than Loner. |
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fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 17:20 |
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RS, WA, and BH add too much character to a team to allow them to be removed. The idea strikes me as bland and gamey. Like moose meat. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 17:27 |
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I ate moose once. It was good. |
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mister__joshua
Joined: Jun 20, 2007
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I included it in my LRB as a standard doubles option, worth 30k. Maybe it's the best option, but it's also a skill they aren't picking so there's opportunity cost.
Looking at an Ogre, at 16 spps you could have:
5529 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate
or
5529 Loner, Bone Head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate, Block, Guard
Which is better? Probably the first one, but not massively so. It depends what he's wanted for.
...but then, I removed Loner from everyone in my LRB, so what do I know?  |
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"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude
Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 18:12 |
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| mister__joshua wrote: | I included it in my LRB as a standard doubles option, worth 30k. Maybe it's the best option, but it's also a skill they aren't picking so there's opportunity cost.
Looking at an Ogre, at 16 spps you could have:
5529 Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate
or
5529 Loner, Bone Head, Mighty Blow, Thick Skull, Throw Team Mate, Block, Guard
Which is better? Probably the first one, but not massively so. It depends what he's wanted for.
...but then, I removed Loner from everyone in my LRB, so what do I know? |
I guess Pro would make little sense for a double roll with this rule in place. Anyway, you need to forgo 2 doubles to get rid of all your negatraits, which is a big deal for Big Guys. At least it would be something worth considering, giving some flexibility to the current double=block, and encourage build diversity, which adds to the game. |
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WhatBall
Joined: Aug 21, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 18:16 |
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Good discussion. I voted for 50. That was the original and some people thought it too low. On consideration, I would revert to 50.
Will read thread thoroughly later.
This all has me thinking of doing another revision of the rules I started. Any interest from others to discuss? We could do one issue at a time and hash out ideas. |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 18:32 |
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| Nextflux wrote: | Loner for example works in a similar way like pro, although pro is a general skill, available to most for 20k, Loner being a negatrait should cost same as a double.
No other positive skills is worth more than a double, so I would go for 30k for negatrait. |
Yeah but, loner puts me off blitzing or blocking at times. Pro doesn't give me the opposite confidence. Worth is certainly not the same.
How about titchy off of a Snotling? "I be a giant, me mother waz 3ft 5inches and all wumun!!!! You can't charge him 50k. I guess it'd have to be a percentage of the players worth or base cost. |
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Diddyboy
Joined: Dec 29, 2007
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2016 - 19:19 |
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if you are allowed to remove negatraits then we have the question of vampires. to get rid of bloodlust is huge and well worth 40-60k |
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