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bghandras

Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 16:02

Elf doing great does not pass my smell test. I used to be an elf coach, but then switched to tweener teams like amazon, and norse, where ball handling can be developed, but also there is bash potential. I think passing is not a great thing, even elves should not pass. So seeing elves also getting the boost is not broken by any means for me. To be honest i would still rather play with tweener teams if my suggestions were passed.

Anyway if you leave passing and catching as it is, but enhance cage breaking, then i think you would score too. I could see
- your multiple block suggestion
- buff to leap
- buff to break tackle
Or even all 3. I consider those skills not great, so a boost would not even move them to tier1 category. Also you could consider moving leap into normal skill category.

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Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 16:09

I like this idea for changing the PASS skill and think it could also be applied to the CATCH skill. And you don't say this (I think)... but by making it a ROLL TWO DICE and Pick 1 skill (like 2 Dice Blocks) you ALSO allow a TEAM REROLL to be made without modifying any other game mechanics related to rerolls.
BUT... is this now TOO FAR or does it go far enough.
Under your suggestion a Pass or Catch roll could be... 2 dice (pick one) + RR 2 dice (pick one)... that is 4 dice. That may be too much.
I suggest scaling it back just a little.

I suggest adding an extra element of randomness to the Pass and Catch Skill by making it in part like you suggest... and in part making it like the skill Pro.
So... as you suggest the Pass is thrown by a player with Pass Skill... so we roll 2 dice (choose 1 result)... and then you get a 50% chance to Reroll the Pass if you choose (like Pro).
So instead... 2 dice (choose one) + 50% RR fails... you must choose from the 2 dice.
OR... 2 dice (choose one) + 50% RR succeeds... 2 new dice rolled (choose one) .
This way you get the 4 Dice to succeed (which would almost be 100% success) 50% of the time when the 50% RR succeeds.

And remember that right now the Pass is roll 1 dice + RR roll 1 dice.

bghandras wrote:

Okay, so i will list the skills related to passing, and some ideas. Now the target for this excercise below is to promote passing with as little change as possible, and looking for simplification in the rules rather adding complexity. At the end i also give a further idea.

Skills: ACCURATE, DUMP-OFF, HAIL MARY PASS, NERVES OF STEEL, PASS, SAFE THROW, STRONG ARM, CATCH, DIVING CATCH

Proposed rule change (simplification): Passing range does not increae fummble chance (as proposed above).
Consequences:
- Agility 6 has some merit in passing (horray)
- Slight buff at TTM and long passes
- Taking STRONG ARM is not penalised against ACCURATE on most passers
I think we could live without those convoluted exceptions that are hard to grasp anyway.

PASS skill (change of wording): Whenever the player with PASS skill rolls for a pass action, then rolls twice instead, and choose the result. (So it is not rerolled, but like making a 1d block to a 2d block.)

SAFE THROW skill (added wording): If there was no interception attempt possible, and the pass is accurate, then the receiver gets an additional +1 for the catch roll.

Extra point:
Make leap the same like dodge. So a 2+ with agility 4. That would make it possible for teams to sack caged carriers more easily. This would make caging more risky. As a sideeffect this would seriously improve slann, but they are not tier1 at the moment anyway. I dont think this would make them over tier1, but i would not mind them as an additional tier1 race.

Catalyst32

Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 16:56

I like the Multiple Block suggestion. As it is that skill is only really useful on Big Guys. I think we would see more ST4 players take it with the chance to follow up and hit a 2nd player that did not begin the turn in your TZ (potentially a Ball Carrier if on Defense).
It might even be useful on Offense to open a hole to run the ball through... Block Defender A, push him back/down and then Block the guy behind him in a typical 1-Step-Back Defensive Screen. The potential combos with Grab here are nice.

I was even going to suggest that MAYBE it could be used to Block the same player Twice... but that is Frenzy. So maybe that doesn't make sense to allow that.

JellyBelly

Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 18:13

I agree with what others have said, that the reason you don't see more passing is because it involves risk, full stop, not necessarily how likely those rolls are. Even for elf teams who can pass/catch on a 2+, passing is a plan B - why make rolls that you don't have to? That 1/36 snake chance happens, more often than you might expect!

The suggestions around Multiple Block are very interesting. Perhaps it could be turned into the BB equivalent of 'Cleave' in D&D: if you knock down your first opponent, and follow-up, you can then make a second block (with modifier)?

Alternatively, it could be linked to Frenzy, so that if you have both skills then you can change the target of your second Frenzy block. This could make the rarely-used Rat Ogre and Minotaur more viable, as Frenzy is a double skill for big guys. Make it so that it only works if you follow up, which would also boost the defensive usefulness of Fend/Stand Firm.

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Tripleskull

Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 18:19

I love the multiple block suggestion. I donÂ´t think it is enough in itself but combined with a buff to break tackle and or stand firm it could make a significant difference I think.

I really like the idea of the uncontested catch (on catch) and I think it would combine good with the above mentioned.

I could be called a WE coach - and I absolutely hate the idea of 2+ leaping WDs. A buff to leap might be in order with the given buffs to the strength skills but I think it would need to be less than making it a 2+ roll.
I canÂ´t think of anything smart. The only idea I have is to allow leaping with only 1 point of MA left but that would buff OTS and I donÂ´t like that.

fidius

Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 18:44

The Pass="2d pick 1" idea is a good one -- if you can TRR it then even moreso. However, also adding the "fumble only on a 1" idea would be too much. Also like bgh's Safe Throw buff (if no possible interceptors, +1 catch).

Another option is to use a couple of new skills (which is outside the scope of your rules changes, I know) to attack the problem directly. So for example Nimble (E): +1 dodging, and Adept (E): +1 balling. You give Human Catchers Adept (and take away Catch I'd say). Maybe you also make Gutter Runners AG3 but give them Nimble. Amazon Catchers might get Nimble as well, straight-up (plus a point of MA, but anyway).

Equalizing passing with handoffs is a bit tough, but one thought is to add a +1 handoff-catch bonus to Sure Hands. This would help Norse Runners quite a bit. SH is already strong though.

Multi Block idea is creative but given its current mechanics I don't see how you'd get anything but a -2d block on that second hit, unless you're already a monster. Good synergy with Stand Firm (similar to Grab it almost needs SF anyway to be effective). Bit redundant over Frenzy, but built-in combo-ability might be cool (or broken -- or both).

The thought I had for a new cage-break skill (again, outside the scope) is something like this:
Sack (S): Allows the player to attempt a headlong tackle on an opponent 2 squares away in a straight line as part of a Blitz action. Sacker always ends up on the ground no matter the result of the block. Sack roll is ST on Agility Table (so 4+ for ST3 players).

Tripleskull

Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 19:12

I Think it time for a new topic and a new poll. This tread has evolved in to something very interesting but different from the starting point even If the objektive is party the same.

JellyBelly

Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 20:12

fidius wrote:

Multi Block idea is creative but given its current mechanics I don't see how you'd get anything but a -2d block on that second hit, unless you're already a monster. Good synergy with Stand Firm (similar to Grab it almost needs SF anyway to be effective). Bit redundant over Frenzy, but built-in combo-ability might be cool (or broken -- or both).

ST5 multi-block big guy could get a +2 dice second block vs a ST3 ballcarrier inside a classic 3 x 3 cage. But, it would be offset by the big guy unreliability and lack of easy access to block/tackle.

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xnoelx

Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 21:55

JellyBelly wrote:

fidius wrote:

Multi Block idea is creative but given its current mechanics I don't see how you'd get anything but a -2d block on that second hit, unless you're already a monster. Good synergy with Stand Firm (similar to Grab it almost needs SF anyway to be effective). Bit redundant over Frenzy, but built-in combo-ability might be cool (or broken -- or both).

ST5 multi-block big guy could get a +2 dice second block vs a ST3 ballcarrier inside a classic 3 x 3 cage. But, it would be offset by the big guy unreliability and lack of easy access to block/tackle.

Nope. A ST5 player using Multi-Block vs a ST3 player (with no assists on either side and no Horns skill on the ST5) would be a 1 dice block, or -2 dice if the first block didn't result in a knockdown.

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plasmoid

Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 22:59

He can get assists though. Or at least cancel the one from the first guy he blocked.
Also, brave ST3 players with multiblock can use dauntless to overcome the ST modifier!

Tripleskull

Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 23:16

And just maybe he is not blocking the ball carrier on the 2nd block but just clearing a corner where he can get assists or making a chain push to get another guy to the ball. This would crack the game wide open. We seriously need this! Smile

xnoelx

Joined: Jun 05, 2012

Posted: Apr 25, 2016 - 23:19

Absolutely. Though to get assists, you'd need to get someone else inside the cage first (in the specific scenario being discussed). And a ST6+ (or ST5+ with Horns) player would have no problems.

But I wasn't saying it was useless, just correcting what I took to be a misinterpretation/mis-rememberance of the rules. I quite like the idea. It gives you interesting choices, like what if the first block resulted in a pushback leaving the defender an assist? Do you reroll the first block to improve the 2nd, or save the rr for the 2nd block? etc...

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JellyBelly

Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Posted: Apr 26, 2016 - 00:00

xnoelx wrote:

JellyBelly wrote:

fidius wrote:

Multi Block idea is creative but given its current mechanics I don't see how you'd get anything but a -2d block on that second hit, unless you're already a monster. Good synergy with Stand Firm (similar to Grab it almost needs SF anyway to be effective). Bit redundant over Frenzy, but built-in combo-ability might be cool (or broken -- or both).

ST5 multi-block big guy could get a +2 dice second block vs a ST3 ballcarrier inside a classic 3 x 3 cage. But, it would be offset by the big guy unreliability and lack of easy access to block/tackle.

Nope. A ST5 player using Multi-Block vs a ST3 player (with no assists on either side and no Horns skill on the ST5) would be a 1 dice block, or -2 dice if the first block didn't result in a knockdown.

Yes, that's true if you keep the -2ST modifier. I guess it depends on how it is implemented. I was thinking, if you synergize it with Frenzy, maybe you could drop the modifier (as Frenzy normally gives a second block at no modifier anyway, which you are just redirecting with the multiple block). Although, that might be overpowered ..

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Tripleskull

Joined: Oct 12, 2003

Posted: Apr 26, 2016 - 10:33

JellyBelly wrote:

Yes, that's true if you keep the -2ST modifier. I guess it depends on how it is implemented. I was thinking, if you synergize it with Frenzy, maybe you could drop the modifier (as Frenzy normally gives a second block at no modifier anyway, which you are just redirecting with the multiple block). Although, that might be overpowered ..

What would be the benefit of synergizing it with frenzy. I think it is more elegant and balanced without that link.

Even with 1d and Â½d blocks this can provide good ways to break open cages. A Â½ dice block with block skill to get a chance at blitzing the BC is generally good odds if it does not put you to much out of position. The buff also makes stand firm and jump better because of the synergy and I like that.

plasmoid

Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Posted: Apr 26, 2016 - 11:30

I really like the direction this thread is headed.
The flip side of this discussion is that easier Cage-breaking will probably make the game a touch more chaotic, and perhaps unappealing to coaches who like to roll as few dice as possible.

But I think it would open up lots of interesting strategies. Not least a focus on protecting the ball - both when held and when on the ground.
Finesse teams can still protect it with blodge, Strength teams with guard. Teams with throwers may well choose to prioritize dump-off.

Interesting...
Cheers
Martin