66 coaches online • Server time: 23:02
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Grabgoto Post Stuff de Vindaloo do...goto Post Dark elf league rost...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 03:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Note: This is not any kind of proposal. Repeat, this is not any kind of proposal! I know that Christer will never change the rules and the chances of GW doing so are slim -the chances of them listening to me when doing so are nil. This is solely for my own use in my local tabletop league -and hopefully a learning exercise in roster design.

But, with that out of the way I don't think many people here will disagree that the LRB 6 Norse team is a mess. The idea of a very aggressive bash team, that can move the ball better than most bash teams but can't take the same kind of abuse they dish out, was a good one I thought, but the implementation is poor - AV 7 is too fragile and Block spam is a poor way to distinguish a team, since it's a skill that every team wants anyway, leaving them without a leg to stand on at higher TV. It's not even unique to Norse at rookie level -Dwarves do it better and even Chaos Dwarves get in on the action.

I do, however, like the idea of Norse as a spammy team -and I like the playstyle of Cyanide's Frenzy-spamming Khorne team, whose biggest sin in my opinion was the poor fit between fluff and mechanics -that roster simply didn't say "Khorne".

So I basically combined them.

Reworked Norse:

0-16 Linemen 6 3 3 7 Frenzy, Thick Skull G | SAP 50 000
0-2 Thrower 6 3 3 7 Pass, Strong Arm, Thick Skull GP | AS 70 000
0-4 Berserker 6 3 3 7 Jump Up, Block, Thick Skull GS | AP 80 000
0-2 Ulfserker 7 3 3 7 Frenzy, Thick Skull, Juggernaut GA | SP 100 000
0-1 Yhetee 5 5 1 8 Loner, Frenzy, Claw, Disturbing Presence, Wild Animal S | GAP 140 000

Apothecary: Yes
Rerolls: 60 000

Fluff-wise, the idea is that the Norse are strong and burly fellows, who disdain armor -hence they all have AV 7, but have Thick Skull. That means they're equivalent to AV 8 in terms of removals, but will take more stuns.

The linemen are undercosted in terms of Galak's formula, but I believe their cost is fair in the context of the team -if Pit Fighters aren't worth 60k, these guys definitely aren't.

The thrower gets Strong Arm instead of Sure Hands, reinforcing the "strong and burly" theme and creating a fairly unique thrower - I like Norse having a passing option and have wished that the Norse thrower were a bit more attractive. It should be so with the ability to launch Short Passes where other AG 3 throwers must make do with Quick Passes -and doubly so on this roster since he doesn't have Frenzy.

Berserkers are the "money" players on the team -they start with Block instead of Frenzy and are 0-4 instead of 0-2, this is to give back some of the reliability and hitting power I've taken away and ensure the team isn't too weak at rookie level.

Ulfserkers replace ulfwerners, but are more like the maligned Runners in terms of role - I never liked that the Necromantic Werewolves are fast blitzing types while the Norse Werewolves are ST 4 AG 2 Blockers, so these are not real werewolves, but humans in wolf pelts emulating werewolves -hence they have the same GA access, high speed (but not MV 8 since they're just human) and Frenzy. They can be built as catchers, blodging ball carriers or surfers depending on the team and coach.

The Yhetee is unchanged - he is a nice big guy.

I've tried to stick closely to the formula, but following it to the letter made the team too expensive - so correct pricing is the number one thing I would like feedback on.

Following from that, what starting rosters would you use? I've listed a few below, but have I missed any viable variations? Are any of them the no-brainer best choice, or are any players wrongly costed in your opinion? Is the team as a whole simply too strong or too weak?

Starting Roster 1
4 Berserkers 320
1 Ulfserker 100
2 Throwers 140
4 Linemen 200
4 Rerolls 240
Total 1000
Variant: Replace the Ulfserker with a Lineman and an apothecary

Starting Roster 2
4 Berserkers 320
6 Linemen 300
1 Yhetee 140
4 Rerolls 240
Total: 1000
Variant: replace a reroll with an apothecary.

Starting Roster 3
4 Berserkers 320
1 Thrower 70
6 Linemen 300
1 Apothecary 50
4 Rerolls 240
Total: 980

Variant: replace a Berserker with an Ulfserker to hit 1000 even.


Thanks for reading, and thanks in advance for your advice!
DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 03:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Your berserkers and thrower are too cheap and your linemen are gonna suck because the best part of jump up on the berserkers is to make POMBers and you need to add guard to support the frenzying linemen. You haven't taken frenzy for block on the zerks; they come with both. You've added thick skull which is just, meh. They will be terribly slow to level up. Taking S access off the Ulfs is also gonna make them slow to level, especially giving them jugs instead. Giving the thrower strong arm is kind of odd because who is he gonna throw to? The Ulfs who are now kinda crummy cause they're not st 4 but are now st 3 with ag 3 and expensive?

Why not just stick with the current roster or if you want to see a good variation, just look to the LRB4 version that had positionals, or just go all the way and go to the Khorne Demon team? This team is not going to perform well at all I think.

_________________
Using derivative humor since 2005.
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 04:17 Reply with quote Back to top

The reasons why I don't want to stick with the current roster are in the OP, or if you don't think they're well explained there, just ask around - the flaws in the Norse roster are well known around here and not especially controversial as far as I know. The LRB 4 roster solves some of them but still has the "AV 7 block spam" issue and is very bland. The reasons why I don't want to "go all the way to the Khorne Demon team" are several: that team has a terrible fluff/mechanics mismatch, even with better mechanics the fluff would be a poor fit for blood bowl and the team would be redundant with Chaos, even with more appropriate fluff it is generally considered poorly designed and weak, and for some unknowable reason it has linemen with Passing access.

The thrower and berserker are both priced according to Galak's formula, and are directly comparable to other players - Throwers to Human and Skaven Throwers, Berserkers to official Norse Berserkers- so I would like to know why you think they are too cheap. And I know the linemen are sketchy, that's why they're only 50k. They could hardly be cheaper, or much better for the cost -although I could give then Strength access, but I don't think it's warranted.
And I explained my rationale with the ulfs -compare them to Runners, not to the LRB6 Ulfs.
Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 04:37 Reply with quote Back to top

This is possibly the most bizarre roster change when combined with the given reasoning I think I have ever seen.

_________________
Image

DLE College 7s
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 05:49 Reply with quote Back to top

This is terrible in almost every possible way.

BLOCK SPAM is what makes the Norse team playable and gives them an edge in early matches.
In late matches being able to hire in Rookies or Journeymen with Block helps keep them competitive.
Being able to get Tackle, Dauntless, Dirty Player, Fend, Sure Hands, Kick... or whatever the team NEEDS after 6 spps and again 10 spps later INSTEAD of having to get BLOCK is what gives the team a chance to stay ahead of the other races in leveling up.
Their AV stinks... but having Block keeps them from having to roll their AV too often.
As for the FLUFF... the best players on most teams START with BLOCK because BLOCKING and BLITZING is what the game is about.
As for the FLUFF... American Football the game this game is loosley based on is all about BLOCKING and TACKLING... and in Blood Bowl Blocking and Tackling is done primarily by Blocking with the BLOCK skill.
The Norse love the game... so they show up knowing how to play that game... and they show up having the most basic skills required to play the game... BLOCK.


Taking BLOCK off the Linemen and the Thrower... 1 of the most reliable skills in the game... and replacing it with Frenzy which is a risky skill to use without TONS of Guard (which you also kinda strip away from the team) make ALL Linemen Blocks a turnover waiting to happen.
So... instead of CHEAP good, RELIABLE good, base players the team gets mainly useless junk in the 0-16 slot AND it loses 2 ST4 players with access to ST Skills (which are at a premium for Norse in their necessity to making a winning team)... no thanks.

For all of these changes for the worse WHAT EXACTLY gets BETTER about the team?
Why not take CLAW away from the Yeti... that would be a terrible change too?

I mean... Strong Arm INSTEAD of Sure Hands... worse.
Also not better than Block which is what he gets now.
Frenzy instead of Block... worse.
st3 and AG access instead of st4 and ST access... worse.
juggernaut... not very useful for a st3,ag3 player without ST access on normals
the Berserkers LOSE a skill and get a 10k cost offset... worse.
the team loses 2 positionals... worse

You put in lots of time to make this team much worse in almost every way.


Last edited by Catalyst32 on May 31, 2016 - 06:06; edited 1 time in total
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 05:56 Reply with quote Back to top

ArthurWynne wrote:
The reasons why I don't want to stick with the current roster are in the OP, or if you don't think they're well explained there, just ask around - the flaws in the Norse roster are well known around here and not especially controversial as far as I know. The LRB 4 roster solves some of them but still has the "AV 7 block spam" issue and is very bland. The reasons why I don't want to "go all the way to the Khorne Demon team" are several: that team has a terrible fluff/mechanics mismatch, even with better mechanics the fluff would be a poor fit for blood bowl and the team would be redundant with Chaos, even with more appropriate fluff it is generally considered poorly designed and weak, and for some unknowable reason it has linemen with Passing access.

The thrower and berserker are both priced according to Galak's formula, and are directly comparable to other players - Throwers to Human and Skaven Throwers, Berserkers to official Norse Berserkers- so I would like to know why you think they are too cheap. And I know the linemen are sketchy, that's why they're only 50k. They could hardly be cheaper, or much better for the cost -although I could give then Strength access, but I don't think it's warranted.
And I explained my rationale with the ulfs -compare them to Runners, not to the LRB6 Ulfs.


These "flaws" you speak of are anything but "well-known around here". I've been HERE for YEARS and have never once heard anyone complain that Norse as they are = OP'd roster that needs to be turned into some garbage roster like you have done. Never once heard anyone that knew anything about the game complain about the Block Spam. I've seen suggestions to BUFF Norse several times.

WHERE did you get the idea that Norse needed to be ruined in such a way? Where did you get the idea that this roster needed to be dealt with in any sort of priority? There have to be 50 things about this game that need fixing above Norse Block Spam... if not 500 things.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 07:30 Reply with quote Back to top

"But, with that out of the way I don't think many people here will disagree that the LRB 6 Norse team is a mess."

I will disagree that the LRB 6 Norse is a mess.

The only other roster I think that suits the norse is the Chaos pact, since marauders are barbarians from the north...aka norse.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 10:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
"But, with that out of the way I don't think many people here will disagree that the LRB 6 Norse team is a mess."

I will disagree that the LRB 6 Norse is a mess.

The only other roster I think that suits the norse is the Chaos pact, since marauders are barbarians from the north...aka norse.


I will go into detail later. But he is right, it's a total mess. You have name changes that have gone in the opposite direction to the other rosters. You have an agility access runner. A player nobody is quite sure what he is, hence the confusing wulf icons. Then gw axed some of the names. Plus some bolted on skills. All taken from a 1 of a kind gw staff produced roster. It may play better than the old one. But the fact it's a mess is categorical in my mind.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 10:18 Reply with quote Back to top

To me the only messy thing about the Norse roster the naming.
And I think that only bothers a small niche within the community.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
To me the only messy thing about the Norse roster the naming.
And I think that only bothers a small niche within the community.


Kind of opening yourself up in front of a firing range there Martin and shouting 'Shoot here!'
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Ok here I go with my thoughts. I guessing this is going to be fairly lengthy.

Norse and Zons were released at a similar time (Norse a little before) and they introduced a new style of roster.

This being stats that are weak to mediocre but with the whole team (bar a Norse big guy) coming with 1 of the 2 main skills of the game.

It was clever in a way, but with a major downside. That being balance with the other rosters, which is just horrid. Norse started pretty good and then went down hill badly. Zons start off far too good and then go down hill until they're on the weak side.

Both however had an individual game. Norse the impact team and Zons the odd bashing side. Norse were then reworked, in my mind in a bizarre way. They became a cross between the roster they were and using an older roster produced by GW staff, that weren't particularly knowledgeable in my mind. This other roster was never official.

The new roster is more balanced, it performs better at higher TV, but as I noted in my previous post, has a lot of issues. In fact more interaction with the other races issues than the original roster.

Khorne, the other roster you have mentioned also went cookie cutter. However there's a big difference. With Khorne the stats aren't below average, so they're more balanced than Norse and Zons. This is a major difference, which means the cookie cutter skill (frenzy) can be weaker and has less of an impact. That being strong out the box with a core skill, but getting weaker as more and more teams on opposing teams get the core skills.

So, what would I do? Firstly there's a quick fix or a long fix. The quick fix for Norse is pretty easy. The big problem with the Norse team is the thrower, it always was. He wasn't much use before, but now because there aren't catchers and a faster ball handler, he's a ridiculous waste of space. In fact the worst waste of space in the game.

So the quick fix is this:

0-2 Runners 7 3 3 7 Block, Sure hands P/G
0-2 Catchers 6 3 3 7 Block, Catch A/G
0-2 Blitzers/Berserkers (same)
0-2 Wulfs (same)
0-16 linos same
and the big guy.....I'm not fussed on this, so may as well keep it the same.

We now have less bolt on skills, a runner that is a runner, the removal of the nigh on useless thrower. And 4 players with a bit of finesse. It's less messy and would perform equally well if not better at high TV.

The more detailed fix, requires a change to the rules. I think there's room for Khorne and Norse with this rule change. PO requires great strength, weight or momentum to be used. Therefore you can only PO if you are ST5 or more OR on the second hit of a frenzy. This means that frenzy becomes a more interesting skill. It also means that Khorne get their kill factor and it buffs Norse a bit too.

Khorne roster
0-16 Khorne Marauders 6 3 3 8 frenzy S/G M/A/P
0-4/6 Blood Letters 6 4 2 8 frenzy S/G A/P(neg trait)
0-1 Blood Thirster 6 6 2 10 frenzy, MB, Tents (neg trait) S G/A/P

Now Khorne become one of the more killy rosters. I'm using this roster and it's better than I thought it would be. The frenzy gets more cas than I thought it would.

Norse

We bring in a specialist Berserker positional, and he really is a berserker!

0-16 Linemen (same)
0-2 Blitzers (same as before(this edition's berserker)
0-2 Runners 7 3 3 7 Block, Sure hands G/S
0-2 Catchers 6 3 3 7 Block, Catch G/A
0-4 Berserkers 6 4 2 7 Thick Skull, No hands, Frenzy, Wild Animal, Jump Up, Block G/S
Same big guy.

A crazy lunatic of a player that has no interest in the ball, just fighting.

You also have 7 frenzy for POMBing. A blitzer can be noted as a more 'controlled' berserker type blitzer.

Here, the Khorne and Norse teams are quite different, both use frenzy however they have a totally different feel and skill set. I think this would finally give Khorne and Norse a nice niche.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 14:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Quote:
Kind of opening yourself up in front of a firing range there Martin and shouting 'Shoot here!'

Perhaps to a small niche in the community Wink

For what it's worth, I agree that the Norse Thrower is rather worthless.
I'm just not sure it's a fix-worthy offense.
I think he shares that trait with the skaven thrower - but any Thrower on an AG3 team is in danger of being "the lineman with sure hands".

I like your Norse twist with the Runner and the Catcher.
But it would be breaking with BB tradition: Not a single Catcher in the game is on a roster that doesn't also have a Thrower. That might be an nnoyance to someone.

Cheers
Martin
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 14:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Perhaps - looking at the official CRP Norse team - which has a Thrower and a Catcher, the sore thumb is the Catch-less catcher.
Sticking Catch on the catcher would make the team look more standard.
The question remains then whether standard = better, or not.
Either way, I suspect that the guy running the ball will always be the guy who gets Blodge at 6 SPP.
Cheers
Martin
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 14:39 Reply with quote Back to top

How can it not be worth fixing the thrower? Especially when it could be so easy. It's also going to unify the 'runner' position somewhat. Which ok, we're not going to agree on 'unifying'.

I'm not sure how much of an annoyance it would be, when a runner has P access. I can't see much difference between having throwers and no catchers over having catchers and no throwers; especially as the runner is a 'quasi-thrower'. It makes the catchers 'quasi-catchers'. However it's a small bone. So if it were the case, it would be ok to develop a different AG access player I guess.......just think that maybe even more contrived.

I think Human and Skaven throwers have a little more worth (as they come with sure hands) where the Norse does not.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 14:47 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
Perhaps - looking at the official CRP Norse team - which has a Thrower and a Catcher, the sore thumb is the Catch-less catcher.
Sticking Catch on the catcher would make the team look more standard.


I played LRB 4 Norse, it was my race of that era. The Norse Catcher was my favourite player. They were pretty pivotal. The Catch wasn't much use on them, but having 2 AG access players on an impact team was very important. Especially if you could develop half a dozen or more blodgers.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 1.2 © 2003 PNphpBB Group
Credits