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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 13:49 Reply with quote Back to top

ArthurWynne wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
And if he is not posting a bad idea he should defend his great idea to enlighten the claudes and neanderthals among us that threw our poo at his glorious idea he came up with after playing 68 games of Blood Bowl.


Dude. This is totally uncalled for. I didn't come here to ram my "glorious idea" down everyone's throats, I came here spesifically because there are people here who know far more than me about Blood Bowl, whose advice I wanted.


You're reading too much in to that. He's partly being hypothetical and partly worst case scenario-ing. You want to get angry, get angry with the guy who's trying to sabotage anything and everything he touches.

It's not worth arguing about.
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 13:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not angry, just a little bit defensive. Smile
I guess there's some background here that I, not knowing the regulars, am not picking up on.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 14:03 Reply with quote Back to top

No, you're just both getting taken in by a troll. Check the guys posts of recent times. He'll need winding in soon, as he's derailed this thread with his continuous rant against the site/RNG/modern trousers.

Bottom line is a lot of your theory is good. Your team structure isn't in my opinion. Personally I don't think you have the experience/history to make rosters. But that's an opinion. It's an interesting thread no matter, and we need more of those.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 14:20 Reply with quote Back to top

"The main reason Norse have trouble competing at high-TV is their AV7"

I think their biggest problem competing is their modest movement. Skaven and Woods also have 7av and still compete well because their movement makes up for it.

Get a few +Mv players and norse do well at high TV.

their other weakness is they don't catch a break on TV. Elves get 4 agility at a discount (pay 20k for 40k upgrade), human throwers are discounted (40k worth of skills for 20k), orc blitzers, etc etc

Norse take a -30TV hit on armor but gain 20k in skill. The berserkers, ulfs, runners, trolls, and RR are also non discounted. At high TV, their opponents tend to be the stronger team because of this.

oh well, you gained an advantage at low TV by trading a high TV handicap...such is the way of bloodbowl.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 14:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Isn't it obviously modest everything? So the higher you go up in TV, the less difference their strong point (blanket block (ok not so much now, but that proves the point) becomes less efficient and their modest stats (on all levels) is shown up?
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 15:34 Reply with quote Back to top

well they do piling on / MB very well at high TV.

The lineman also don't have to use their first skill on block so they very quickly learn a specialty like tackle, dauntless or dirty player.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2016 - 00:13 Reply with quote Back to top

(linemen) But there again, in a TV environment, that's detrimental. It's a little better in CRP with the added G skills of Fend/Wrestle, but still. Norse Linemen don't have great options on skilling up (after the first couple of skills on your first few linos). Eventually they'll get pretty podgy.
DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2016 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

ArthurWynne wrote:
The reasons why I don't want to stick with the current roster are in the OP, or if you don't think they're well explained there, just ask around - the flaws in the Norse roster are well known around here and not especially controversial as far as I know. The LRB 4 roster solves some of them but still has the "AV 7 block spam" issue and is very bland. The reasons why I don't want to "go all the way to the Khorne Demon team" are several: that team has a terrible fluff/mechanics mismatch, even with better mechanics the fluff would be a poor fit for blood bowl and the team would be redundant with Chaos, even with more appropriate fluff it is generally considered poorly designed and weak, and for some unknowable reason it has linemen with Passing access.

The thrower and berserker are both priced according to Galak's formula, and are directly comparable to other players - Throwers to Human and Skaven Throwers, Berserkers to official Norse Berserkers- so I would like to know why you think they are too cheap. And I know the linemen are sketchy, that's why they're only 50k. They could hardly be cheaper, or much better for the cost -although I could give then Strength access, but I don't think it's warranted.
And I explained my rationale with the ulfs -compare them to Runners, not to the LRB6 Ulfs.


Well bland is one thing but that's salting to taste; you add skills along the way that make them non-bland. As stated before, the Amazons are a comparable team and they are the definition of bland. Ulfs and the Yeti make them anything but bland.

I point to Khorne because you've sort of replaced block spam with frenzy spam. Not really any more interesting from a variety perspective but certainly making the team more unstable, also reiterating what you've accepted that they are S access light to support the frenzy (which Khorne made up for with 7 guys with S access). The part that feels kind of extraneous to me is all the thick skull. Dorfs have it cause they're stinkun dorfs, but I'm not sure I see the need for it on a Norse-esque team, certainly uncompensated on the linemen (its just been added for free). Giving the linemen S access would make them underpriced; they would have to be dorf longbeards.

My comment about the thrower being underpriced is because he has pass AND strong arm, very synergistic skills on AG 3 which are greater than the sum of their parts. At only 70k, anyone would take him but they'd be looking for targets which are now ferocious wolf catchers... kinda odd. What used to be the beat sticks of the team are now lilly livered catchers dancing into the endzone... fluff wise that's kinda out of place and mechanics wise you've taken a contact player and made them non-contact.

I love to play Norse and I'm not trying to get all up in your biznass, I just don't think the roster will perform well.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2016 - 01:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:
"The main reason Norse have trouble competing at high-TV is their AV7"

I think their biggest problem competing is their modest movement. Skaven and Woods also have 7av and still compete well because their movement makes up for it.

Get a few +Mv players and norse do well at high TV.

their other weakness is they don't catch a break on TV. Elves get 4 agility at a discount (pay 20k for 40k upgrade), human throwers are discounted (40k worth of skills for 20k), orc blitzers, etc etc

Norse take a -30TV hit on armor but gain 20k in skill. The berserkers, ulfs, runners, trolls, and RR are also non discounted. At high TV, their opponents tend to be the stronger team because of this.

oh well, you gained an advantage at low TV by trading a high TV handicap...such is the way of bloodbowl.


I'd go a step further and say that MA combined with AG4 is what keeps their AV7 from being completely obliterated at high TV because after all it's a 2+, you don't fail many of those.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2016 - 01:24 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
It's like you're mad I caught you masturbating in public. I'll show myself out.


I was on my bench that I donated to the public parks system so that I could have a nice place to sit while I do what I have to do.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2016 - 01:43 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
"The main reason Norse have trouble competing at high-TV is their AV7"

I think their biggest problem competing is their modest movement. Skaven and Woods also have 7av and still compete well because their movement makes up for it.

Get a few +Mv players and norse do well at high TV.

their other weakness is they don't catch a break on TV. Elves get 4 agility at a discount (pay 20k for 40k upgrade), human throwers are discounted (40k worth of skills for 20k), orc blitzers, etc etc

Norse take a -30TV hit on armor but gain 20k in skill. The berserkers, ulfs, runners, trolls, and RR are also non discounted. At high TV, their opponents tend to be the stronger team because of this.

oh well, you gained an advantage at low TV by trading a high TV handicap...such is the way of bloodbowl.


I'd go a step further and say that MA combined with AG4 is what keeps their AV7 from being completely obliterated at high TV because after all it's a 2+, you don't fail many of those.


Norse easily get fend and block, that works well too.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Zufbar Hammerers!
DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2016 - 01:54 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

I'd go a step further and say that MA combined with AG4 is what keeps their AV7 from being completely obliterated at high TV because after all it's a 2+, you don't fail many of those.


Only 1 in 6...
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jun 02, 2016 - 01:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Dude. The post you are quoting wasn't addressed to you. And I am not even talking about you in the post you quote.

I am addressing the guy who just had to rush in to be your savior in a situation where you certainly didn't need to be saved.

As you point out in your post that I am now responding to I handed you fair and constructive criticism and so did various others.

I merely point out TO THE OTHER GUY, Mr Internet Hero, that if the DEBATE is wrong that you can coe back to make your points.
OR... that he could ride in on his High Horse to save the day by explaining why the idea was good.

People discuss, debate and argue here... that is THE POINT OF A FORUM... which obviously you and I get and the White Knight does not.

So... now here you are playing the White Knight for HIM and thinking that I was after you. But at least you actually came to defend yourself... so that is good.



As for your new suggestions and reasoning... taking away the Block Spam EQUALS that it is no longer a Norse Team really. Block Spam has been their identity for a long time and is similar only to 1 other team (Dorfs) and is the only similarity between the 2 teams.

For that reason you are working your way into a unique team BACKWARDS. You are better off just creating a NEW RACE/TEAM that come into the game with their own unique style. Call them Barbarians or Nomads or Savage Orcs or Feral Elves or Tall and Crazy Dorfs... make them into a team and call it a day. In fact, if you do some hunting you might find an unapproved Savage Orcs Roster or Barbarians Roster laying around somewhere that is much like you already suggest.

To change an existing roster the ideal goal would be to make 1 or a few small changes. Something like Ulfwereners bet CLAW as a starting skill and maybe they cost a little more. OR Norse get 2 Werewolves like Necromantic has in addition to the current roster ot to replace something. OR something like combine the Runners and Throwers into a positional of 0-4 players with General, Agility and Pass Access... so you can build a Thrower if you want... or some Catchers... or just guys with Blodge, Sidestep, Diving Tackle etc. Make them MA-7 ST-3 AG-3 AV-7 and start with Block... or whatever. Small changes. Not a whole overhaul.

And... you don't have to like all the team or the skills they spam. But you should realize that Spamming certain skills is part of making a team unique. The base player is the Human Lineman... 6 3 3 8 and no starting skills. Skaven spam +MA and -AV. Norse spam Block and -AV. Amazon spam Dodge and -AV. Slann spam Leap and Very Long Legs and +10k to their cost. All of these things help foster BALANCE in the game.


ArthurWynne wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
And if he is not posting a bad idea he should defend his great idea to enlighten the claudes and neanderthals among us that threw our poo at his glorious idea he came up with after playing 68 games of Blood Bowl.


Dude. This is totally uncalled for. I didn't come here to ram my "glorious idea" down everyone's throats, I came here spesifically because there are people here who know far more than me about Blood Bowl, whose advice I wanted.

The reason I haven't participated in the discussion after it started is that there didn't seem to be much to say - everyone agreed that my idea was terrible from first principles and started talking about other ways to improve the team.

You, Catalyst, took the time to explain why the idea was bad and the proposed team is far too weak, so thanks for that.

But I would rather try to improve this variant of the team than work from the premise that Norse are supposed to be a Block spam team, because I find that to be a completely uninteresting mechanical identity for a team to have. (It works for Dwarves because they have a lot more going on that makes them what they are.)

To be clear, this is not really a proposal for making Norse perform better. (Although that wouldn't go amiss at high TV). It is a proposal for making them play differently, in a fashion that I consider to be more interesting. Again, this is purely for my own purposes and not anything that any of you will ever have to use or play against. Consider it a theoretical exercise, if you care to.

A serious flaw of my roster, as I understand it, is that it has far too little Strength access now. If the Linemen and Throwers had Strength access, would that help? And if the Berserkers were only 70k?
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