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plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 14:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi all,
I've been thinking a lot about player pricing recently.

I've seen it stated quite frequently - especially here on FUMBBL - that the big Guys are too expensive.
A lot of them do get used though. But that may just be a case of "they're unfairly priced, but they're still better to have than not".
I imagine that some big Guys are fine. And that some are not.
And I'd really like to hear what you all think.

So, here is a list of all the big Guys. You can easily cut & paste - the list and add your comments on pricing.
I've included all actually different versions of each player (for example lonerless or with access to mutations)
Thanks all.
Martin

>>>
Beast of Nurgle (Nurgle):
Deathroller (Dwarfs):
Kroxigor (Lizardmen, Slann):
Minotaur (Chaos):
Minotaur (CDs, Chaos Pact):
Ogre (Pact)
Ogre (Humans):
Ogre (Ogre):
Rat Ogre (Skaven):
Treeman (Wood Elfs):
Treeman (Halflings):
Troll (Orcs, Gobbos):
Troll (Pact)
Troll (Underworld):
Yeehtee (Norse):

and perhaps...
Mummy (Undead):
Tomb Guardian (Khemri):
DrDiscoStu



Joined: Feb 20, 2006

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 15:28 Reply with quote Back to top

Interest question, the only ones I feel I can comment on

Beast of Nurgle (Nurgle): Yes
Kroxigor (Lizardmen): Yes
Troll (Orcs): Yes
Minotaur (Chaos Pact): Heavens no they are wastes of space!

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 15:43 Reply with quote Back to top

All the big guys miss out on the discount in price formula for being over 100k that other players get. Instead of that, they get an arbitrary drop in price from their negative traits, and then usually get Loner on top of that for nothing.

But most of them are synergistic with the other players on the team well enough to compensate for the extra 10-30k on the price. It's only one player, after all. It hurts Ogre teams because you end up paying an extra 120k for your basic team, though the stunty teams have equally overpriced linemen so it hardly matters. The ones around 100k like Mummies and TGs are not overpriced at all.

The Mino is most often dumped in Chaos and Chorf because the whole team wants to blitz rather than leaving it to the Mino, he's just dysfunctional rather than prohibitively expensive. The Wood Elves keep a tree because it takes a hit on the line for them several times a game, even though it's mostly useless other than being 9 squares the opponent will avoid.

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 16:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I will only comment where i feel huge mismatch. If it is a minor mismatch i do not comment
Beast of Nurgle (Nurgle):
Deathroller (Dwarfs): Overpriced by possibly 20k
Kroxigor (Lizardmen, Slann):
Minotaur (Chaos): Overpriced by 10k
Minotaur (CDs, Chaos Pact): Overpriced by 10k
Ogre (Pact): Overpriced by possibly 20k
Ogre (Humans): Overpriced by possibly 20k
Ogre (Ogre): Overpriced by possibly 20k
Rat Ogre (Skaven):
Treeman (Wood Elfs):
Treeman (Halflings):
Troll (Orcs, Gobbos):
Troll (Pact)
Troll (Underworld):
Yeehtee (Norse): Overpriced by 10k

and perhaps...
Mummy (Undead):
Tomb Guardian (Khemri):

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 17:45 Reply with quote Back to top

in general they are too expensive on a staring roster but they are part of the fun of the game and can develop into solid pieces to be used in the game

for example a basic Troll with Guard and Stand Firm added for just 40k more in price is a great Roadblock that helps keep a guard where you want it during a scrum (assuming you don't move him ofc)

many big guys are used as this Roadblock positional... their main job being to get in the way of the opponent and provide Guard. There are other ways to use them... but they are less popular ways to use them I suppose.

If you think about it this way... getting a skill on a big guy is VERY cost efficient (assuming you take the right skills) because his TV only increases by a small percentage of his Total Value in Team Value. While skilling most linemen increases their cost in TV by anywhere between double his TV and 17% increase in TV. (Does anybody get what I am saying here... I didn't explain it very well.)
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

for example a basic Troll with Guard and Stand Firm added for just 40k more in price is a great Roadblock that helps keep a guard where you want it during a scrum (assuming you don't move him ofc)

The problem is that clawpomb removes the Roadblock easily, moreover Loner + Negatrait + no G access is a terrible combination and makes them often not a great investment.

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 18:18 Reply with quote Back to top

The way i look at big guys is that they are discounted by about 15-30% in TV due to negatraits. This also means that anything they gain in skill will be also 15-30% less useful as on some other players. Of course some skills are much better on big strength, so there is also a sinergy bonus, but never forget about the "less" part.

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Shakall



Joined: Feb 15, 2005

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 18:22 Reply with quote Back to top

Trolls for Goblins are okay (they should lose loner as fling trees and ogre ogres but that's another topic). UW trolls with acces to claw and tent and even on normal are super sweet deal imho. Av 9 and regen is very usefull one helps for fouls and the other even vs. claws. My goblin trolls played 59 and 66 games before I replaced after five normal (S) skill rolls. So I guess they are quite durable even with out block Smile
I even got a troll for my latest Orc team since if you gonna go high on TV why wouldn't you have a regen av 9 strenght 5 troll in the troops. They also threat with OTTD though that's rarely successful. So that's a long post about trolls. Some CP play all mauraders, one dark elf + troll. Leader reroll and ready to hunt so trolls must be good!
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 18:23 Reply with quote Back to top

So I believe there are two separate but related questions at play here:
1. What price would one pay to take the big guy over the other options in the team to increase the probability of winning games?
2. What price would one pay to make the probability of success with that team x%?

To illustrate this consider the human ogre. Very expensive but one pays the price as without an ogre it will be hard to compete. However, the price is such that humans are, in most people's perceptions, unlikely to be seen as one of the stronger teams.

I think one has to decide what one is trying to solve. Do you want people to take the big guys or do you want to make the race more/less competitive or possibly both? And if it is the latter, is the way to achieve this through the pricing of big guys and/or other methods?

My main view is that the negative cost of loner is probably insufficient. Loner is, for most good coaches, a prohibitive skill (and so only acceptable on players who will take non-critical actions). However good many star players are, you make scarce use of them because they are not reliable enough. The same is true for big guys. Think how good a star or big guy would have to be that you chose them as your ball handler or blitzer given the loner skill unless you had no other option.

I appreciate that big guys probably shouldn't be the 'queen' piece either. But the current dynamic doesn't make me happy. That isn't a scientific measure or a well reasoned argument of where they should be. But it tells me I don't enjoy 'big guys' like I would like to (the apostrophes in this last sentence are important Smile).
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 18:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Beast of Nurgle (Nurgle): About right. Centerpiece player.
Deathroller (Dwarfs): Too expensive for a rostered secret weapon, about right as an inducement. Therefore, about right.
Kroxigor (Lizardmen, Slann): About right.
Minotaur (Chaos): About right.
Minotaur (CDs, Chaos Pact): 10k too expensive? Maybe not, maybe they're just big balls of suck at any price.
Ogre (Pact): About right. Could be a tad cheaper. Or not.
Ogre (Humans): 10k too expensive. Kroxigors are objectively better at the same price.
Ogre (Ogre): 10k too expensive.
Rat Ogre (Skaven): About right.
Treeman (Wood Elfs): About right.
Treeman (Halflings): About right.
Troll (Orcs, Gobbos): About right.
Troll (Pact): About right.
Troll (Underworld): Cheap, but the team needs it.
Yeehtee (Norse): About right.

and perhaps...
Mummy (Undead): Too good, but not worth more money, and if nerfed should maybe be cheaper.
Tomb Guardian (Khemri): About right.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 19:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the negatrait and no general (block) on normal access are bigger issues than loner. But loner certainly compounds them. You get a lot of negatives to have that strength 5, armour 9 and mighty blow. Ogre team ogres don't have loner but are still overpriced when you consider the team relies on them and snotlings are also overpriced (at least when skilled).
The aim should be to encourage more people to take big guys, not that they will massively increase win rates. Now it is too easy to not choose these fun players on many teams.

Deathroller could do with a ban roll rather than auto ban, as in Stunty Leeg, to encourage taking them.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 19:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Take the DeathRoller for the fun of it. Driving people into his TZs with your Troll Slayers and then using Multiple Block, Grab and PO is good times.


Last edited by mrt1212 on May 31, 2016 - 19:08; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 19:07 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
snotlings are also overpriced (at least when skilled).

This is why they must be fired if the first skill is not a double/stat increase.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 19:41 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
garyt1 wrote:
snotlings are also overpriced (at least when skilled).

This is why they must be fired if the first skill is not a double/stat increase.


I feel like the only stat worth taking on a snot is AG. But I roll full Ogres all the time.
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 19:58 Reply with quote Back to top

The price of our Toaster is too damn high!

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