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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 20:14 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

I feel like the only stat worth taking on a snot is AG. But I roll full Ogres all the time.

Yes, although +MA is quite good.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 21:17 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
garyt1 wrote:
snotlings are also overpriced (at least when skilled).

This is why they must be fired if the first skill is not a double/stat increase.



Interesting. You don't find a Snot with Diving Tackle as his only skill worth keeping?
I find the synergy with Side Step useful but I have not played Ogres much as of yet.

Although I see your point when it comes to the 1 skill doubling his TV.
Do you think this is more of an issue in BOX than it is in Ranked or League?
Antithesisoftime



Joined: Aug 20, 2014

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Rat Ogre - 150k
3 Linerats - 150k

Rat Ogre - 6/5/2/8 Prehensile Tail, Frenzy, Mighty Blow, Wild Animal, Loner
Linerat - 7/3/3/7

With 5 skills, all normal, that Rat Ogre has guard, stand firm, break tackle, juggernaut, and piling

With 5 skills, those 3 linerats have 2 block, fend and 1 dirty player

3 linerats also expands the roster a bit more, allowing key players (One-turner Gutters) to avoid being in danger on defense.


The only thing the Rat Ogre brings over 3 linerats is the fun factor. Other than that, he's too over costed to be worth it on a team with 4 developed gutters
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 22:07 Reply with quote Back to top

as a rookie, the snow troll is not worth 140k (would if it had 2ag or 6M), but it doubles in power with every skill afterwards so eventually it is worth it.

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Last edited by Arktoris on May 31, 2016 - 22:28; edited 1 time in total
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 22:20
FUMBBL Staff
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I've discussed my thoughts on Big Guys many times before in my various threads, so I won't go over all the reasoning again. In general I think the following needs to happen:
- All Big Guys lose Loner
- All Av8 Big Guys have AV increased to 9
- All Wild Animals have their price reduced by 20k
I think that'd about cover it.

The basic general problem is reliability. The Wild Animals have the additional problem of only being usable at low TV. In mid/high TV teams they're normally useless.


I don't even think it's 'better to have than to not'. I think if we're discussing specific Bigs then I think there are maybe 2/3 that are good value and the rest are only taken as they're fun or thematic. I love Bigs and nearly always take them, but if I was min/maxing I'd skip most of them.

>>>
Beast of Nurgle (Nurgle): Bad
Deathroller (Dwarfs): Awful
Kroxigor (Lizardmen, Slann): Good
Minotaur (Chaos): Awful
Minotaur (CDs, Chaos Pact): Awful
Ogre (Pact): Bad
Ogre (Humans): Bad
Ogre (Ogre): Bad
Rat Ogre (Skaven): Bad
Treeman (Wood Elfs): Bad
Treeman (Halflings): Good
Troll (Orcs, Gobbos): Bad/Good
Troll (Pact): Good
Troll (Underworld): Good
Yhetee (Norse): Bad

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: May 31, 2016 - 23:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

Interesting. You don't find a Snot with Diving Tackle as his only skill worth keeping?

No, it's not worth keeping, too expensive for the return the skill provides. 2 rookie Snotlings are better than 1 Diving Tackler Snotling.
Catalyst32 wrote:
I find the synergy with Side Step useful but I have not played Ogres much as of yet.

For sure Diving Tackle has synergy with Side Step, the problem is that a ST 1 AV 5 player is very easily 3d-blocked without assists, knocked down and removed from the pitch, therefore not worth 40 TV.

Catalyst32 wrote:
Do you think this is more of an issue in BOX than it is in Ranked or League?

TV bloat is bad in any environment.
I would not stack regular skills on a Snotling in Ranked and League as well.
I'd try to build a super Snotling ball carrier, but this kind of player requires stat increases (AG and MA).
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 00:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Possibly it's a resurrection vs perpetual thing? The BBRC seemed to be terrified of ST5 guys, especially teams. Possibly the 2 formulas of pricing need to be different.

Personally, I didn't see much wrong with LRB 4 big guys. I think they should have Big Guy over Loner and have that pricing.

As for this topic, BGhandras is definitely the authority on pricing. Go with what he suggests.
DrDiscoStu



Joined: Feb 20, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 01, 2016 - 04:10 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:

The Mino is most often dumped in Chaos and Chorf because the whole team wants to blitz rather than leaving it to the Mino, he's just dysfunctional rather than prohibitively expensive.


If he was 10k would be worth having? I think so, so there is a cost point worthwhile

The Chaos one is far far far better due to his access to tentacles. This means he can work as a roadblock rather than a pure blitzer.

CD are the best race in the game. Their Mino sucks beyond belief with no sympathy from me

It is frustrating for Pact though. You really need two doubles on him (block & tentacles) for him to work.

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plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 12:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi all,
thanks for your replies. I apologize for my very late response.
Quite interesting to see the responses. A quick summary:

Fairly Priced:
Beast of Nurgle (140K)
Kroxigors (140K)
Treemen (120K)
Trolls (110K)
Mummies and Tomb Guardians are also OK, then Again, they're not Big Guys, just ST5 players.

Hung Jury
Rat Ogre (150K)
Yhetee (140K)

Overpriced
Deathroller (160K)
Minotaurs (150K) - the M-on-singles slightly less bad
Ogres (140K)
....and might I add the Bloodthirster at a ridiculous 180K?

Makes sense to me Very Happy
A bit of speculation: The Wild Animals are generally bad.
Perhaps Yhetees are OK because they start with the coveted Claw, while ROgres have Prehensile Tail to help their role as road Blocks.

And Ogres are just lacklustre. They feel slightly better than trolls, but don't have anything that helps them with their role as Road Blocks.

The fairly priced ones are the Trolls (WHO are significantly cheaper than everyone else), and the Big Guys that get a skill to help with being a road block (Prehensile Tail/Tentacles/ST6+Stand Firm).

My thinking here isn't to redesign how Big Guys Work in the game.
Just to tweak the Price.
It could make them a bit more viable.

Would it be too much to drop the Yhetee and ROgre 10K?
And the Ogres, Minotaurs and the Roller 20K?
....Possibly the Bloodthirster by 30K? (to 150K)


Finally, if I wanted a quick fix to Big Guys (i.e. Loners), I'd probably allow Juggernauts to treat skullspows as pushbacks on Block Actions too.
It's not like Juggernaut is an awesome skill anyway.
And that added stability would make the Big Guys a lot more useful/reliable.

Cheers
Martin
mr-maverick



Joined: Sep 10, 2010

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I dont think that Wild Animals need to change, compared to bone head and really stupid it has advantages that the player doesn't lose his TZ when he fails the roll.
In addition, when you get a big guy up to star level and beyond they can be among the scariest oppos to face and changing the cost by 10 - 30k is only going to make it easier to get there.

e.g. this guy:
https://www.fumbbl.com/p/player?op=view&player_id=7870072
now dead, but you i'm sure you know what I mean

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Badoek



Joined: May 17, 2009

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 13:27 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the best priced Big Guys are the ones that get taken as often as not. For example: the skaven Rat Ogre. Some use him, others don't. It's a matter of taste, which is a great thing!

Cost effectiveness isn't as black and white as some are making it. Yes, a particular Big Guy might seem to be waste of TV/gold (150k for the Rat Ogre or 3 linerats) but the issue that I find often ignored is that you can only field 11 players at a time. You can't field those 3 linerats together instead of the single Rat Ogre (read: field one ST5 vs one ST3). Now with skaven having a bench is a good thing so that works against the Rat Ogre, imho that's the Rat Ogres biggest problem.

Beast of Nurgle: no idea about cost, but I find it useful. It's the only weapon rookie(-ish) Nurgle have against agile teams. And it's high ST is good against the bashy teams. Fitting him in from the start comes at a price (rerolls, warriors, pestigors) so that's a good thing. I'd say fine price. At high TV it doesn't matter anymore what it costs, at lower TV you have to choose what you want.

Tomb Guardian: Looking at starting rosters, seems well priced to me (sodding decay though!!).

Orc Troll: Fine, you don't have to take him from the start but I like to buy him rather soon.

Chaos Tard: silly thing but apparently has a coolness factor working for it. Probably overpriced.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 13:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Always interesting to see the spectrum of opinion when viewed through the prism of different environments. An Ogre does a pretty huge job on a Human team in my opinion; I never begrudge spending 140 k on the lovable anchor. He's massive in the games Humans struggle in; giving you a chance at keeping high ST opposition at bay. Is 140 k the 'correct' amount of money according to the oft trotted out equation? Is he too expensive compared to other stuff? I don't know if those questions are as important as 'do you want one?'. It's like the Human Catcher; I find them to be important to the team and never see the point of the 'more AV, they're too expensive' argument; I want at least one, so their cost cannot be too far wrong.

I'm a low to mid TV biased coach, with a pretty large resurrection environment flavour to me. I suspect some of our high TV, progression biased coaches would take a strongly opposed view on Ogres; looking at a 140 k TV sink that will evaporate at the first sign of Chaos.

You can argue all day about the perceived value of this or that, but I think it's largely environment dependent. Also, it's good game design that some players, skills or inducements a better or worse than other players, skills and inducements. Good coaches seek their own efficiency and value, and it's right they gain advantages over coaches that have not done the mental maths and planning. If everything was 'correctly' costed or weighted, the game would lose something, for me. It's the major issue I have with all of the NTBB stuff; the game should feature better or worse things, races included. Even with the current meta, there are 8-10 competitive teams at any TV you care to name, as well as 15 or so teams with varying amounts of extra challenge and flavour to them. When you compare BB to other games around, that's an excellent place to be.

TL:DR Human Ogre love.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 14:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Badoek wrote:


Cost effectiveness isn't as black and white as some are making it. Yes, a particular Big Guy might seem to be waste of TV/gold (150k for the Rat Ogre or 3 linerats) but the issue that I find often ignored is that you can only field 11 players at a time. You can't field those 3 linerats together instead of the single Rat Ogre (read: field one ST5 vs one ST3).

The problem is that a Linerat is 50 TV, a Rat Ogre is 150 TV.
If you are fielding a Rat Ogre you are increasing the TV a lot compared to the actual effectiveness of the Rat Ogre.
Also, with AV 8 and no Thick Skull he's not a great Road Block, he can be quite easily removed from the pitch even at low TV.

Badoek wrote:

Beast of Nurgle: no idea about cost, but I find it useful. It's the only weapon rookie(-ish) Nurgle have against agile teams. And it's high ST is good against the bashy teams. Fitting him in from the start comes at a price (rerolls, warriors, pestigors) so that's a good thing. I'd say fine price. At high TV it doesn't matter anymore what it costs, at lower TV you have to choose what you want.

At low TV Beasts are fine, at high TV clawpomb makes removing them too easy, so many coaches prefer just to invest that TV on clawpomb on Nurgle Warriors and Pestigors.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 17:00 Reply with quote Back to top

they are fine

nothing needs fixing

they bring strange and unique thing to teams

cos they are fricking huge

next

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D_Arquebus



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 17:00 Reply with quote Back to top

I enjoy all big guys.

I find it funny that you need to "incentivize" coaches to take "fun pieces". Fun not its own reward any longer? Razz

Minotaurs are battering rams... add Juggernaut and they can move walls of ST 4 Stand Firm/ Guard crap out of your way. If coach X cannot see value in that, then their mileage may vary to mine Smile . Standard Mutation Access for Claw/ Tents/ Extra Head for better cage breaks would obviously make the CD and Pact Minos better then they are. But they still work as is.

Final thought: Diving Tackle Snot is the best 40k an Ogre team can spend Wink Razz

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