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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 17:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
garyt1 wrote:
snotlings are also overpriced (at least when skilled).

This is why they must be fired if the first skill is not a double/stat increase.



Interesting. You don't find a Snot with Diving Tackle as his only skill worth keeping?

I keep skilled snotlings even in Box. But the issue exists whether in League, Box or Ranked. Skills should ideally be more proportional to base cost. Doubling tv of a s1 player for an agility skill is ridiculous, though I accept it. Tripling for 2. They don't equal a rookie goblin after a skill.

As for Big Guys I'm surprised some people are saying they are all only marginally overpriced or fine. If that was true we would see more on Pact etc.
Minotaur, Deathroller, Rat Ogre and non-human team ogre clearly should be reduced in cost. Plasmoid's suggested 20k reduction on some of these makes sense.

More big guys!

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Last edited by garyt1 on Jun 10, 2016 - 17:21; edited 1 time in total
D_Arquebus



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 17:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Group think is a thing. And the drive for efficiency over fun + effectiveness seems to some a sort of quest...

They can be taken, they can do a job, they are hella fun! Smile

More Big Guys! Wink Razz

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 17:56 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
garyt1 wrote:
snotlings are also overpriced (at least when skilled).

This is why they must be fired if the first skill is not a double/stat increase.



Interesting. You don't find a Snot with Diving Tackle as his only skill worth keeping?

I keep skilled snotlings even in Box. But the issue exists whether in League, Box or Ranked. Skills should ideally be more proportional to base cost. Doubling tv of a s1 player for an agility skill is ridiculous, though I accept it. Tripling for 2. They don't equal a rookie goblin after a skill.

As for Big Guys I'm surprised some people are saying they are all only marginally overpriced or fine. If that was true we would see more on Pact etc.
Minotaur, Deathroller, Rat Ogre and non-human team ogre clearly should be reduced in cost. Plasmoid's suggested 20k reduction on some of these makes sense.

More big guys!


Just price Snots at 60k, problem solved. Very Happy

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 19:41 Reply with quote Back to top

I never played previous LRBs but would have liked to try the "Big Guy occupies 4 squares" rule. Though I understand the counterbalance was that they counted as 2 players on the pitch. Fair trade? What would have to happen in our current ruleset to go back to the 4-squares rule I wonder?
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 19:52 Reply with quote Back to top

fidius wrote:
I never played previous LRBs but would have liked to try the "Big Guy occupies 4 squares" rule. Though I understand the counterbalance was that they counted as 2 players on the pitch. Fair trade? What would have to happen in our current ruleset to go back to the 4-squares rule I wonder?


More Cpombed/fouled big guys
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jun 10, 2016 - 21:04 Reply with quote Back to top

fidius wrote:
I never played previous LRBs but would have liked to try the "Big Guy occupies 4 squares" rule. Though I understand the counterbalance was that they counted as 2 players on the pitch. Fair trade? What would have to happen in our current ruleset to go back to the 4-squares rule I wonder?


No way is it a fair trade. This trade off was well before the LRBs, it was 2nd edition.

Back then the ST5 big guys were ST7. With your average players still at ST3, but your blitzers and blockers at ST4.

There was no such thing as assists, but later on 'ganging up' came into play. Then Dwarfs (which were the strongest team in reality) came into their own. Especially the Giants with some of their star players, killed big guy teams.

Taking up 4 squares is a trade off in itself. It's extremely hard to move players around when they take up 4 squares.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2016 - 09:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Guys,
sorry (as usual) for the massive delay.
Thanks to all who contributed.
I'm currently tinkering with the pricing formula just for the sheer heck of it, and it has landed me pretty close to your combined list. To summarize:

Not overpriced: Beast of Nurgle, Kroxigor, Treeman, Troll
Hung jury: Rat Ogre, Yhetee
Overpriced: Deathroller, Minotard, Ogre, Bloodthirster

My tweaked pricing puts them at:
Beast of Nurgle: 140K (same)
Slann/Lizardman Kroxigor: 140K (same)
Halfling Treeman: 140K (20K more - but formula makes halflings 20K)
Wood Elf Treeman: 130K (10K more - difference to halflings is due to Loner)
Orc/Pact Troll: 110K (same)
UW Troll: 120K (10K more)

Rat Ogre: 140K (10K less)
Yhetee: 130K (10K less)

Human/Pact Ogre: 120K (20K less)
Ogre team Ogre: 130K (10K less - difference due to lack of Loner)
CD/Pact Minotaur: 130K (20K less)
Chaos Minotaur: 140K (10K less)
Bloodthirster: 150K (30K less)
Deathroller: ??? not exactly sure how to price Secret Weapon Skill...

Prett happy with that, considering the feedback above Very Happy




Purplegoo said:
Quote:
Also, it's good game design that some players, skills or inducements a better or worse than other players, skills and inducements. Good coaches seek their own efficiency and value, and it's right they gain advantages over coaches that have not done the mental maths and planning.

To my mind this "feature" isn't going away at all. But IMO there is already plenty of ways for good coaches to be far supirior to bad coaches, without the need for built in pitfalls in team design. They'll be losing anyway.
I once met a newb at a TT tournament. He had used 3 skill picks to take HMP and 2 diving catch. He thought it would be good. It really wasn't.

D_Arquebus said:
Quote:
They can be taken, they can do a job, they are hella fun! Smile
More Big Guys!

More big Guys indeed Very Happy
Because they are fun. Behaving just as unreliably as they do.
But we won't be seeing more big Guys just by saying 'more big guys' or by shaking our heads at coaches who don't think they're worth it.

Cheers
Martin

PS - this repricing of big Guys wasn't a political program. I wanted to play with the pricing formula - hopefully to make it better. I know it can never be perfect. I just wanted to see if I was reasonably close to the mark (or not).
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2016 - 10:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Sorted by price, just for reference.
150K Bloodthirster: (30K less)
140K Beast of Nurgle: (same)
140K Chaos Minotaur: (10K less)
140K Rat Ogre: (10K less)
140K Slann/Lizardman Kroxigor: (same)
140K Halfling Treeman: (20K more - but formula makes halflings 20K)
130K Wood Elf Treeman: (10K more - difference to halflings is due to Loner)
130K Yhetee: (10K less)
130K CD/Pact Minotaur: (20K less)
130K Ogre team Ogre: (10K less - difference due to lack of Loner)
120K Human/Pact Ogre: (20K less)
120K UW Troll: (10K more)
110K Orc/Pact Troll: (same)
???? Deathroller: not exactly sure how to price Secret Weapon Skill...
D_Arquebus



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2016 - 10:49 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
To summarize:

Not overpriced:

All of them....


At least, without disregarding any voices suggesting they are fine as is Wink Razz

plasmoid wrote:

D_Arquebus said:
Quote:
They can be taken, they can do a job, they are hella fun! Smile
More Big Guys!

More big Guys indeed Very Happy
Because they are fun. Behaving just as unreliably as they do.
But we won't be seeing more big Guys just by saying 'more big guys' or by shaking our heads at coaches who don't think they're worth it.


People on here are also told to sack linemen over 2 skills, or any positional player, that doesn't roll a stat or double, etc. I suggest all of these are false as well.

The false search for efficiency in BB is the issue. Not a 10k premium on your Ogres or Trolls. Providing reasons to coaches on how and why they are fun to use and worth their money makes as much sense to me as pandering to those who run tv min/maxed teams or who just can't stand risk management on Nega Traits.

Cheers Smile

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2016 - 10:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm never really super fond of the practice of taking one quote from a longer post, answering it (with a point I disagree with, but that's OK, it's a forum) and sidestepping the main thrust of the passage (in this case, that Human Ogres are absolutely fine in the environments in which I use them, actually, they're essential and competitively priced. Since they're always taken, perhaps you could argue underpriced, if you want to play Devil's Advocate?).

I appreciate that you're having a bit of fun and playing with this and that, but I think the method (essentially using the wisdom of crowds on a BB forum to ratify a house ruled costing formula when referencing a game played in numerous ways and environments) is a bit off?

But, anyway. People can use house rules as they please, and have fun doing so. I only ever get a bit put out of joint when there is an incorrect whiff of 'progress' or 'official' swirling around. Which there clearly isn't here.
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2016 - 10:56 Reply with quote Back to top

you should ask yourself what does the big guy add to the team. We deemed BoN worthy because it synnergyzes well with its team. The Chaos mino is just a liability for its team, and 10k is not gonna fix this. It is an unreliable blitzer in a team where the linos are all blitzers. The mino just doesn't fit there, it's not a matter of pricing.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 05, 2016 - 15:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Why do you keep referencing the bloodthirster? It doesn't exist officially. We can't give you experienced feedback on it, and neither did you ask for feedback in your original post.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2016 - 09:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Purplegoo,
I meant no disrespect only answering that part of your post. A lot of people = a lot of points, so replying can get very long winded. I just replied to the point that I strongly disagreed with.

I should have started by saying "duly noted". I get that you think Ogres on the human team are priced right, but since quite a few other posters disagreed, I'm still leaning firmly with that majority.

I do have tremendous respect for your skill/experience at low-TV/Res, and I agree that any talk of balance is difficult due to differing environments and TVs. My main focus in adjusting prices would be on low TV play. In higher TV play these small tweaks will be drowned out by many other factors anyway. And repricing couldn't fix everything. I get that too. But I think that some imbalances at TV1000 stem from sloppy pricing.

I know that many res tournaments deal with this using "tier rules", and I personally think that res tournaments are a way more interesting place than they were 5 years ago. So that's good, IMO. And we could leave it at that. But out of curiousity I looked hard at the formula, came up with some tweaks and ran the numbers. More to be posted later. The dream would be a better TV-formula = better matching/inducements. Even if 'perfect' is impossible (and it is), then 'better' is, well, better.

Concerning Humans, you could say that 'you want the Ogre, so it must be fairly priced'. And that's possible. Another possible explanation (that I'm leaning towards) is that Humans is not a top team at TV1000, so they need the Ogre, even if it is (overly) expensive. They'd probably buy it at 150K too. That doesn't mean that 140K is the right/fair Price. And with the Ogre a little cheaper, they might struggle a little less at TV1000.

As for 8-10 teams being competitive at any TV, AFAIK the Danish national team talks about the big 6, and then 4 more that are almost there but not quite. Either way, at TV1000, I wish that there would be more than 6-8 out of 24, before things grow more unpredictable/uncontrollable. Before this degenerates into an NTBB thread - which it isn't - I should say this isn't about dissolving the tiers. But if tier 1 would be more equal at TV1000, then I think that would be a good thing for both tournaments and League play.

Cheers
Martin
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2016 - 09:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Zakatan,
@I agree that everything can't be fixed with pricing.
But some things can. IMO.

And case in point - I think the Chaos Minotaur is useful at low TV play. And the team would be a touch more viable at low TV if it were cheaper. Even if that doesn't fix it's anti-synergy at higher TV.

Cheers
Martin
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2016 - 10:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi D_Arquebus,
Quote:
At least, without disregarding any voices suggesting they are fine as is Wink Razz

I tried to count up the viewpoints and go with the majority (of posters).
No disrespect meant to tou or your particular viewpoint Very Happy

Quote:
Providing reasons to coaches on how and why they are fun to use and worth their money makes as much sense to me as pandering to those who run tv min/maxed teams or who just can't stand risk management on Nega Traits.

I see what you mean.
If it is any consolation, this repricing was actually part of a nobler (IMO) attempt to make TV matching more accurate (at low TV). I know that wasn't clear from the post.

Cheers
Martin
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