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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 18:28 Reply with quote Back to top

The only reason why "we" are concerned with cost is because so many coaches fixate on TV and so forth. TV management has taken over the collective brains of Blood Bowl coaches on FUMBBL.

For me the issue is the skill options for big guys, especially the non mutating ones. They are one dimensional and you need a lot of luck on skill ups to make them unique and different from each other.

The problem was when CRP dropped traits and grouped all the S access skills into one huge "pool" it decimated the big guys.

Bring back some form of traits or have a separate skill group just for big guys.

The idea of buffing some of the skills, well, you could go there but I do not think that is what is needed.

The ultimate buff for big guys is actually very simple. Just give them all G access. Problem solved. Now most teams would consider fielding their big guy if they desired. OF course Iam probally wrong because it seems most "serious" coaches would say the TV cost is to high and thus elevate my team TV to high.

So the simple way to do this is you have two groups of Big Buys. The mutation access BG's and the others.

The mutation guys keep MS access and the other Big Guys get GS access.

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

If the core skills (Block, Tackle) were split into 2 skills you could open G up to certain Big Guys.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 19:06 Reply with quote Back to top

i am not concerned with cost

use em or not use em - your call.

some do, dome don't. sounds like the system works ok as is

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 19:48 Reply with quote Back to top

pythrr wrote:
sounds like the system works ok as is


Well, CRP works, in general, OK. It is just OK to me because I do not believe it really fits FUMBBL Ranked/Box and to some extent League play. Perpetual open play is not CRP's strong suit. Which IMO really is the core problem with CRP and how some aspects of it work on FUMBBL.

Now the OP asked, was it a cost issue when talking about Big Guys. I have pointed out it is not a cost issue but a CRP skill access issue when it comes to Big Guys.

Of course the real question is: what is the end game of the discussion?

#1 Lower the cost of Big Guys to make them more appealing in this TV driven rule set?

#2 Expand skill access to make them more effective which in turn makes them more appealing?

#3 Is it a combo of the two?

Now FUMBBL does have a way to test this. With the advent of the S. League and customization "we" have a situation where you can buff the big guys by lower their cost or expanding skill access.

Garion on the S. League rosters has some big guys with G/S access. I have no clue how to gauge the success or failure of messing with the big guys and moving them away from CRP BUT FUMBBL does have a way to test it.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I think that removing Loner should be the first step to improve Big Guys, if that is not enough then a price reduction, if this still is not enough then unlocking the G access (although this could be too much, I'm afraid).
Removing Loner would be a huge improvement and a good start point, while Negatraits should be kept because they provide flavour and character to the different Big Guys.
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 19:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I would like pointing out I think Iam one of the few who thinks Loner is a buff on Big Guys because it used to be they could never attempt to reroll in less they had pro, at least now they can attempt to re roll.

Also the idea of making a unique Big Guy skill tree is an option when you blend the big guy centric skill from S and G into one skill group.

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Nightbird



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 20:19 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd like to see loner removed & G skill access opened up to Big Guys. For that matter I'd like to see all player types having G skill access, but that's OT. Anyways, I think nega-traits are enough to hamper Big Guys. They SHOULD be stars of alot of teams IMO, but I digress...

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 20:19 Reply with quote Back to top

That's like saying suffocating in a shipping container at the bottom of the ocean is a buff to drowning in a shipping container at the bottom of the ocean.
keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 21:51 Reply with quote Back to top

This should have been a Poll. I would say... No they aren't.

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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 17, 2016 - 22:53 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Perpetual open play is not CRP's strong suit. Which IMO really is the core problem with CRP and how some aspects of it work on FUMBBL.


Wait wait wait... so just because the users play in open leagues (which have no real point mind you other than team building), you want to make changes to the rules? That's backwards. If anything, you should be suggesting changes to the Box or Ranked as they are the player implementation of the rules.
harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2016 - 00:21 Reply with quote Back to top

But what percentage of BB games being played are played in an open format like this? I would say that more games are played in open perpetual than any other. So shouldn't it be considered?

Saying that GW are grasping their game back, and the game is there to sell figures. Open format doesn't sell figures.

plasmoid wrote:
IMO, some (but not all) short term issues could be fixed with pricing


Yes, I guess. However what effect does that have on the long term? If you're using a system that has progression, you need to look at the long term. For resurrection there aren't really any problems with pricing. Sure it could be a bit better I guess, for some unknown reason the BBRC became terrified of larger guys.

The only thing I'd actively look at changing for resurrection would be to utilize more skills. Skill package combos maybe.

Which leads to that old chestnut. Using the same handicapping and match making rules for perpetual, league and resurrection hurts all 3 formats.

plasmoid wrote:
while some long term issues could be fixed with skill/skill-access.


PainState wrote:
The only reason why "we" are concerned with cost is because so many coaches fixate on TV and so forth. TV management has taken over the collective brains of Blood Bowl coaches on FUMBBL.


This is the problem with long term. Skill access has very little to do with it.



I don't really understand big guys lost big guy for loner. Pricing in LRB4 seemed fine (with big guy). So why not give JMs, Mercs, Stars loner and kept the big guys on big guy? Not that complicated I don't think. Especially as you had decay and niggle which are 2 neg traits added with a similar long term plan.

The worst thing for me about the old 'big guy' is that it sounds like a positive skill. When I first saw the trait I thought "cool.........what does it do.......Oh Sad"
ArthurWynne



Joined: Sep 23, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2016 - 00:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Loner on Big Guys is fine, it really makes them as players - if they weren't so unpredictable and risky to use they would play very differently and I think, be less interesting. It also makes big guy stars more attractive since Loner on them isn't really a drawback compared to status quo.

The issue for me is that most, if not all big guys are currently overpriced, although some more than others. (The ones I'm not sure of are Kroxigors and Treemen. Krox and trees are really good, and all of the teams that can take either, wants them -granted that Halflings aren't much evidence of anything. But does that mean the price on them is right? It still feels kind of high.)

If big guys were cheaper they would obviously be more attractive, and if the price were correctly calibrated, they would be a balanced option - taking or not taking them would be purely a matter of coaching style and metagame environment.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2016 - 00:51 Reply with quote Back to top

ArthurWynne wrote:
Loner on Big Guys is fine, it really makes them as players


They would be incredibly valuable assets. Loner respecitively Big Guy earlier is what causes negatraits to be so much of an issue to begin with.
Remove loner and negatraits don't really matter either anymore.

They started with no RR access because the BBRC found big guys broken in playtesting with RR access. It's not a good idea to blindly revoke that fix for no good reason other than that they are a little inconvenient.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2016 - 01:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Loner on Big Guys could be acceptable if failing an action with them (and just with them) didn't cause a turnover.
You block with an Ogre and roll double skull, he's knocked down but no turnover.
This could be a compromise to keep Big Guys unreliable but mitigating the effect of their failures.

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 18, 2016 - 01:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Wreckage wrote:
ArthurWynne wrote:
Loner on Big Guys is fine, it really makes them as players


They would be incredibly valuable assets. Loner respecitively Big Guy earlier is what causes negatraits to be so much of an issue to begin with.
Remove loner and negatraits don't really matter either anymore.

They started with no RR access because the BBRC found big guys broken in playtesting with RR access. It's not a good idea to blindly revoke that fix for no good reason other than that they are a little inconvenient.


I agree that removing Loner is way too big a buff. The hybrid answer of course is to make Pro (on doubles) cancel Loner. Pro would then seriously compete with Block as first doubles skill.
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