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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2016 - 12:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Cool, good read Smile

yeah Willow dryads are the key to beating their team, I would have tried to get my Mechs on them and bash them out the game as they are only av8.

Runners I think are important for speed, but you deffo need to keep them safe like a human catcher.

bomber - remember you dont have to be accurate 3+ and he doesnt blow him self up scatters arent always bad Wink

look forward to seeing you play more with them, get lizards on the go too. I'd like to see what you do with them,

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ahalfling



Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 08, 2016 - 23:44 Reply with quote Back to top

The first round of the inaugural Old World Rookie Rumble came to a close with two games tonight. Neither was without controversy, but one was a much more exciting spectacle for fans than the other.

In the first match, the Mos Eisley Banthas struck early and often, putting down the Dryads of Mind the Sap by a 4-0 margin. Hobgoblin trickery was in full effect, both of the standard variety (on both of the first two kickoffs, a cunningly palmed second whistle allowed the Banthas to get the jump on their receiving foes) and the more unusual type (a spike concealed in the grass caused two Mind the Sap players, including an oak dryad, to suffer first-turn injuries in the same square.)

For a couple turns, it seemed as though the hobgoblins' mediocre football skills would undermine their plots, but once they got the lead, things got progressively easier. The Dryads' game plan was mostly solid, and they ended up throwing nearly twice as many blocks as their rivals, but lackluster execution on those blocks prevented them from capitalizing. Mos Eisley went into the second half with a 3-0 lead, both dryad receivers out (including one dead,) and no casualties suffered. The fans rioted at the beginning of the second half, as a barrage of thrown nuts, fir cones and the occasional squirrel stunned several Banthas players, but they were able to recover. Runners Kabe and BoShek combined for three touchdowns, with the latter earning the MVP following a one-TD performance with a completion.

As the game wound down, another match was starting up -- but unless you were watching at home, odds are you didn't see it. With only 6000 fans in the stands, the tilt between Gnome Anne's Land and the Deadly Drops of Lumbria was one of the least attended games in Blood Bowl history. (The management at Annefield Stadium disputes this characterization, citing a suspicion that some ticket buyers were actually two or three gnomes piled atop each other in a trench coat, as well as OWRR officials' failure to count the drop bears watching the game from the rafters.)

However many fans were there, they saw a great game between two small teams. The ball changed hands repeatedly in the first half, but eventually the Drops grabbed hold of it and ran it in for a late first-half touchdown. A last-minute gnome scoring attempt failed due to the stumpy-armed team's poor passing skills, and we moved on to the second half, with multiple drop bears injured or knocked out, but the Lumbrian visitors up 1-0.

An errant Lumbrian kickoff flew beyond the end zone and resulted in a touchback. (Broadcasters suggested that Lenah the Kangor doesn't know her own strength.) In a bold move, captain/coach/monarch Gnome Anne handed the ball to one of the team's marvelous gnomish contraptions, and instructed its driver to barrel down the field. He got maybe 10 yards before the giant Kuparr shoved through multiple gnomes and hurled himself at the machine, knocking them both down. (Poor blocking fundamentals were a recurring theme this game: no less than five times, a block on the ball carrier resulted in knockdowns for both the carrier and the player doing the blocking.) Gnome Anne herself, who had already been warned by the referee for throwing a bomb, saw the chance to make progress and grabbed the loose ball. Again the Lumbrians knocked themselves down in a semi-successful blitz, but this time, Anne was driven from the game with a broken jaw.

The good news for the gnomes was that, even without their leader, attrition had left them with a significant man advantage. (After the midpoint of the second half, the Deadly Drops were unable to field more than six players at any time.) Gnome players were warned for a pair of fouls, and one was ejected for an illegal hit that knocked a drop bear out of the game. They were able to play for time before tying the game, though, leaving the Lumbrians unable to score and prevent overtime. With only six men on the field, the Lumbrians received, unable to do much but plan to throw a drop bear down the field. A deep kickoff and a stumble by the retrieving Kangor put a stop to that plot, and from there, it was relatively simple for gnome blitzer Anne Tony to grab the ball and run it in for the victory.

In the second round of the tournament, the Banthas will face the Pygmy Mouse Guard, while the gnomes may have it tough against the Dryads known as Nyssa's Avenging Angels.

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Beat Claw, Play AV7

(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.)
jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 09, 2016 - 08:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Another game played with my Nauticans, this time vs buuface's Nippon (or whatever we're calling them now).

How to describe this one: not great for the Nauticans. 1 dead crester, 2 stat busts and a bomber who is being fired. But that happens with stuntys and is not the purpose of this post.

This was my first game using the Ignimbrite (bomber), who I admit to having concerns about from the start. Maybe helloo is having different luck with them, having chosen to start with all 4 and 0 rerolls, I'd be interested to know. But personally, I can't see myself taking any of them (they're 0-4) in my team for the foreseeable future.

For 70k, you get ma3, st2, ag3, av10, with Dauntless, Bombardier, Regeneration and Secret Weapon. Regen is a nice touch but isn't going to help the team as secret weapons will be sent off. Av10 helps keep them around but it's so easy for them to be tied in one position, thereby reducing any use from the bombing. When all you can do is stand up (Ma3) and being st2, it's likely you'll be doing a move I'm calling the Costello for the majority of the drive. I realise this is a concern with all bombers, but the lack of mobility, stunty or dodge on the Ignimbrite really makes this an issue more than usual.

I'm not too sure what dauntless is about, maybe it's there for fluff reasons. The Ignimbrite has G and A skill access so I could see it being useful if you had block or wrestle but how much tv do you want to sink into a secret weapon? And how much spp can you get on an ma3 bombadier anyway? Possibly you could use the Ignimbrite as a ball carrier, but with ma3 vs the ma7 and stunty/dodge other st2 players you have in your team, I don't know why you would do this.

Possible changes: nerves of steel or a price drop? Bah, I dunno. I've only played 1 game with it so this post needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. But I've played a lot of goblins and don't take the bomber in that team (not the only one who thinks that) and the Ignimbrite seems worse for nearly double the price. I think the Nautican team is stronger than Goblins - bonehead is better than really stupid, Cresters are much better than Goblins (no offence TGG) as big hand is amazing on a stunty. But personally, taking the Ignimbrites just makes the team worse.

TL:DR I'm not a fan of the Ignimbrite and don't see a place for it in my team, which is a shame on a team with only 2 positionals.

Don't start me talking, I could talk all night.

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 09, 2016 - 10:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Very Happy

I haven't had much experience with ignimbrite, I generally dont take the bomb with goblins either because of how many SW they have but one key thing you are missing is Stunty players have to roll 3+ to avoid fumbling the bomb and blowing them selves up.

Ignimbrite has to roll a 2+.

I dont think they have much place on offence though, however when defending anything that can knock the ball on the ground (like a bomb Wink ) is gold dust for Cresters imo.
jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 09, 2016 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I appreciate the difference between 3+ and 2+. I also appreciate the difference between 40k and 70k that you're paying for that, as well as the difference in mobility (both ma and stunty/dodge). Goblin bombers are essentially goblins you only have for one drive who have the ability to bomb as well. Ignimbrites have little use outside their bombing.

But these are only my thoughts from my experience with goblins, lot of theory-bashing and 1 game. I'll hire a couple of ignimbrites (I rage sacked the one I had), play a dozen or so games and report back Smile

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 09, 2016 - 11:26 Reply with quote Back to top

they are good at getting hit as well, hitting wet sand doesnt usually get you very far Very Happy
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 05:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Hello,

I could write a report about my two games with Red Dragons, but I simply wanted to say that I have strong doubts about the suggested roster. After two games, I retired the team - next game was with 3 thralls.

Dice were subpar, but it's mostly the fact that 5 thralls just ain't enough. It's a source of constant frustration. Turns with two thralls out are not that uncommon. Once the opponent understands the weakness, position play becomes next to nightmarish. With 3 vamps with 3ag on the field, it's very hard to pull a turn the usual way, and attrition is too slow for 3 RRs and non-Block creatures, even with MB.

If I restarted a team, I'd either try with less zombies or with less vamps. I don't exclude the fact that I did not play them as they should. Nevertheless, for now I'll pick Lahmian.
jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 10:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Pygmies experience a (slightly) unexpected hard counter. Honestly this teams feel they're playing the serious underdog at 1mil TV and I feel this is the level they'll be most competitive at. When the other teams start getting mass tackle/block then pygmies will be a laughing stock.

Might go so far as to say I'm finding them tougher than snotlings. Not a glass cannon, more a glass trumpet.

Sure they're manoeuvrable but so are snotlings and they have ogres/trolls + wagons.
Sure dauntless and claw is great but drop bears have that and kangors and the big fella.
Sure they love a loose ball, but so do cresters and they have crabs.
Sure they leave pretty red smears on the pitch.

Not sure ag4 is a good enough compensation for lack of any offence. And with their blitzers being the joint most pricey in the game, you can't even get a decent bench at starting tv.

I realise this was undoubtedly the way they were designed but you'd have to be a masochist to play them. I'll keep playing them Smile

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Garion



Joined: Aug 19, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 10:30 Reply with quote Back to top

FYI Pygmies have a price deduction pencilled in for blitzers for now.
jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 10:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Cool. And at the rate they're dying, I shouldn't need to start a new team to capitalise on the price drop

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ahalfling



Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 11:14 Reply with quote Back to top

In all fairness, that game was a bit ridiculous. Hard to come back when the first three things that happen in the game are a rock and two knives, and that weaponry leads to two KOs and a BH. A few more injuries/KOs, a few untimely snake eyes for the pygs and a whole lot of luck for the hobs -- I didn't even have to use a reroll until turn 7 or something -- sealed it pretty quickly.

I liked the hobgoblins' chances against the pygmies to begin with, because of the combination of block, knives, and dirty players. (Granted, I only ended up fouling twice -- but both led to KOs, and neither to an ejection.) But there was literally no point in the game where the hobgoblins didn't outnumber the pygmies 11-8 or worse. That seems both disastrous and highly unlikely... I'm not saying the pygmies won't drop, but it's unlikely to happen THAT quickly.

(I also think they'll have a chance to develop a bench... the vast majority of stunty injuries are BH, so even if they do take heavy damage, roster turnover shouldn't usually be catastrophic. They also all dodge on a 2+/2+, so it's not hugely risky to get them out of tackle zones at the end of the turn.)

That much having been said, yeah, they seem like a challenge. Right now, I'm overprotective of my winning percentage, and I've probably started too many teams. But once I feel like starting one again, pygmies are on my short list. (No pun intended.) If I was able to make them work in stunty, surely that'll translate to the Secret League, right?

Anyway, the win brings me to 8-1-0 with hobgoblin-based Secret League teams, further proving a belief I have long held: all those chaos dwarves and bull centaurs were just holding hobgoblins back from true greatness.


Last edited by ahalfling on Jul 10, 2016 - 11:27; edited 1 time in total
ahalfling



Joined: Aug 16, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 11:23 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
Hello,

I could write a report about my two games with Red Dragons, but I simply wanted to say that I have strong doubts about the suggested roster. After two games, I retired the team - next game was with 3 thralls.

Dice were subpar, but it's mostly the fact that 5 thralls just ain't enough. It's a source of constant frustration. Turns with two thralls out are not that uncommon. Once the opponent understands the weakness, position play becomes next to nightmarish. With 3 vamps with 3ag on the field, it's very hard to pull a turn the usual way, and attrition is too slow for 3 RRs and non-Block creatures, even with MB.

If I restarted a team, I'd either try with less zombies or with less vamps. I don't exclude the fact that I did not play them as they should. Nevertheless, for now I'll pick Lahmian.

Yeah, not sure I understand the (non-fluff) appeal of zombies as opposed to thralls in that roster. Granted, I'm pretty anti-zombie in general, but the one good thing about zombies is that they're extremely cheap and semi-durable. Thralls are just as cheap, though, and fill virtually every role (mobility, handling, bloodlust targets) better than the zombie does.

Moreover, all of those roles are potentially important to the Blood Dragons -- not just bloodlust. Because the vampires are AG3, and because their mighty blow makes them likely to be developed primarily as killers, it may sometimes make more sense to let a thrall carry the ball, or even to build one as your QB (or at least ball retriever.) The presence of the Grave Guard, who are really just zombie blitzers (MA5/AG2), and the vamps' reduced dodge/gaze ability further slows down a team that didn't have a lot of speed to begin with. Throw in zombies, and they're struggling to outrun orcs.

Conversely, the zombies provide survivability, but that's less important to the Dragons than to vanilla vampires -- AV9 on the vampires and grave guard, both of whom regenerate, plus a cheaper price point on the positionals, which should allow a deep bench even at low TV.

(3 rerolls is also cutting it real close, in my opinion. If I can afford it, I like to start with 4 RRs on teams with little or no block/dodge/sure hands. Add vampirism into the equation, and I'm definitely going with 4, even at 70k each.)

_________________
Beat Claw, Play AV7

(Hell, I ran a forward passing orc team back in the '90s. You probably shouldn't listen to me. Ever.)
jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 11:51 Reply with quote Back to top

ahalfling wrote:
In all fairness, that game was a bit ridiculous. Hard to come back when the first three things that happen in the game are a rock and two knives, and that weaponry leads to two KOs and a BH.


True, was a ridiculous start. But the last game I played with pygmies ended with 5 players on the pitch so it's not unknown. Every block where a pygmy goes down has approx 25% chance of player removal (~34% for the av6 catcher). And as there's no big guy to help tie up opposing players, you're really at the mercy of the dice more than any other team.

As for a bench, a 50k line pygmy is great value. Maybe I should have started a team with just them, 1 thrower and the blitzers:

3x blitzer = 300k (minus whatever the price drop saves)
3x rr = 180k
8x linemen = 400k
1x thrower = 80k
Total = 960k

Sacrificing 1 thrower, 1 blitzer and 2 catchers for an extra reroll and 5 linemen (giving you a reserve too). The blitzer price drop would free up the 10k you'd need to upgrade a lineman into a blitzer too.

I'm not advocating for changes or anything like that, haven't played nearly enough with this roster. But I'm trying to give thoughts after using them, something I wish more people would be doing Smile

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jul 10, 2016 - 12:59 Reply with quote Back to top

ahalfling wrote:

(I also think they'll have a chance to develop a bench... the vast majority of stunty injuries are BH, so even if they do take heavy damage, roster turnover shouldn't usually be catastrophic. They also all dodge on a 2+/2+, so it's not hugely risky to get them out of tackle zones at the end of the turn.)


I disagree with this, on the basis the one pygmy team I've faced already had undergone heavy attrition, and then lost two blitzers vs me on top of that. Why? Because quite frankly, they are the first players you hit if you can, and on top of that they are also prime foul targets - once they're gone the rest of the team cannot really do much in a blocking game. Additionally, because they are so expensive, losing 1 or 2 early can mean loner hell for a while.

I think the pygmy team as it stands is excellent for a one-off fun game, but long-term it looks like it starts to unravel.

As an aside -
ahalfling wrote:
That much having been said, yeah, they seem like a challenge. Right now, I'm overprotective of my winning percentage, and I've probably started too many teams.


What? It's league. Doesn't touch your win% unless you're calculating it yourself for an extra level of masochism. Leave the ego at the door and have fun! Wink Razz

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jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jul 11, 2016 - 08:40 Reply with quote Back to top

Halfway through a pygmy vs rookie khorne game (so no block or tackle on khorne and only mb on thirster). My team has 11 players and gave away inducements.

My cas box is 1 badly hurt, 1 mng, 1 dead, 1 KO and 1 -ma (who I apothed to reserve box). What will the second half bring? Wink

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