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Poll
+1
Yes
62%
 62%  [ 18 ]
No
37%
 37%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 29


SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post 14 Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 00:55 Reply with quote Back to top

I believe KO format is silly for this type of tournament.

It is assured we won't have power of two number of teams. Moreover, 24 teams are not nice for a 32 teams bracket. 1/3 of the races get a free bye which results a random handicap.

This tournament would be the first official major with swiss format and I believe it would fit to it well.

Assuming no drawn games, determining a clear winner would require the same number of rounds (5) as a knockout tournament. So, please enable overtime.

Petition last for 30 days from now.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 02:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I expect AV7 to suffer grievously under a swiss format
Cavetroll



Joined: Jan 21, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 02:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure asking 24 coaches to commit to 5 weeks of games against people from potentially widely varying timezones would work either. You would have at least a few forfeits, maybe not the same number as teams that currently receive BYEs a 24 team KO format but possibly not far off.

What about a melding of the two - 3 rounds of SWISS followed by an 8 team KO format? I still feel like this kind of tournament needs to end with the two best/luckiest teams facing off in a final game.

Also, you either need a 'maybe' or a 'pie' option. I don't think yes/no is sufficient. If forced to answer the current poll, I'd say no to a 5 round Swiss format.

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SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 08:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Unfortunately I can not edit the poll anymore.

I think that taking part in a major event is enough motivation to make 5 games played.

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 09:24 Reply with quote Back to top

I'll talk it over with Cyrus_havoc and Easilyamused. Some valid points here & keep the comments coming!

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 10:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't think that Blood Bowl really lends itself to the KO format; OT is a really unsatisfying thing (coin toss even less so after OT) and bad games happen to even the best coaches. Draws are a perfectly acceptable and usual result, finding a 'winner' to advance a tournament always feels somewhat manufactured to me. This is part of the reason the site major tournaments are not for me. There are hugely practical upsides to the KO format in terms of facilitating the tournament and keeping coaches interested (you're always interested until you no longer have to be), so I absolutely get why they have ended up the way they have.

All that said, by it's very nature, the XFL Masters should be a tournament consisting of invested, competitive coaches who require a lower level of staff effort, right? By that logic, you could probably select a tournament format more suited to BB (Swiss being a classic example) with few fears. The main issue, as pythrr suggests, would be playing across timezones for five weeks. Seems a tough ask.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 10:06 Reply with quote Back to top

SzieberthAdam wrote:
Unfortunately I can not edit the poll anymore.

I think that taking part in a major event is enough motivation to make 5 games played.


Not when your chances of winning are very slim.

Having your favourite teams tied up for five weeks and maybe destroyed with no chance of recovery. Having to schedule matches at times that are maybe not ideal.

A three week Swiss qualifier is probably enough.

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sonrises



Joined: May 02, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 10:52 Reply with quote Back to top

short swiss + ko makes sense to me.

2 or 4 swiss groups to split races by tiers/races types? Makes sense to the XFL fluff too
SzieberthAdam



Joined: Aug 31, 2008

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 11:24 Reply with quote Back to top

We are developing the ATP based ratings for official tournament progressions with sonrises (you can peak to the development version here -- please note it is under development). I was came to the swiss format XFL masters idea by looking at the data.

Assuming the current point allocating rules (it is a test version - final will be an open debate) a swiss level 2 major the system would allocate about 200-250 points for a win and about 100-125 points for a draw which means you could get the same amount of points by having a single draw result as by winnng a small (8 team) minor which is very much worth it.

Losing by fortfeit (or conceding), however, decreases the earned points by the amount of a win+draw (about 300-375) (earned points can't go below zero) which is not worth it.

SR will be released soon.

_________________
"I love him who is ashamed when the dice fall in his favour, and who then asketh: 'Am I a dishonest player?' - for he is willing to succumb."
-- Friedrich Nietzsche: Thus Spake Zarathustra, Zarathustra's Discourses, 4.
Cyrus-Havoc



Joined: Sep 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 11:48 Reply with quote Back to top

This needs some thought. I have a few reservations although this idea does have merit. As Cloggy said we will talk it over first. Thanks for the input.

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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 13:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Swiss is just a plain terrible online format. It makes sense for tabletop but forcing people to play online when they already lost is just nothing but torture.
And don't get me started about that ridiculous tie breaker.
A coin toss would about 1000 times fairer than cas+TDs.
Jokaero



Joined: Dec 24, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 18:10 Reply with quote Back to top

I have a mixed opinion on this.
I really like the Swiss format (the name already suggests that it must be good) with non-progression teams like in the online NAF tourneys. There, It doesn't really matter if you can't play for the win anymore as it's still a good practise and fun as the teams are usually quite balanced.
Also for some majors, I see where it could be fun to play Swiss style, especially as it's a nice alternative to the omni-present KO-format.
However, the XFL Masters is the one tournament where I see the least need for it. As Wreckage pointed out, it's not really fun to play more games if you can't win it anymore, especially when you're the one bringing Gobos, Flings and other low tier teams that will only act as point providers and will get ripped to pieces. And yea, also not a fan of the tie breaker .. which is again even worse in the XFL Masters than it would be in other tourneys.
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 18:50 Reply with quote Back to top

The tie breaker of net TDs + net CAS is rarely the best option for a Swiss, and for a tournament such as this, agreed, it's probably even worse. So far as my understanding goes, coding something better (e.g. SoS) is non-trivial, and not high up the list of importance, but it doesn't take too long to calculate manually if the TO is so inclined. I doubt it's more of a deal breaker than the (perfectly legitimate) concern about a progression Stunty team taking a few whompings over a month or more in this particular event. There are ways around it, and a flat 24 team Swiss isn't the only format available if there is a desire to get away from every event being a flat KO, it's just one option.
Cloggy



Joined: Sep 23, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 20:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Just a quick update from the offices of the XFL Management: We are leaning towards going with the format first suggested by Cavetroll. All will be revealed shortly!

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 01, 2016 - 20:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Short swiss + KO finals sounds good (not that I'm anywhere near playing in the XFL masters!). In general though, I think it could be very cool to convert one of the Majors to a 'World Cup' style format, with a Swiss/round-robin qualifying round, then a KO finals as usual. Would be kind of nice to have a second bite at it if you lose the first game.

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