| Poll |
| Is min/maxing a problem in Blackbox? |
| Yes |
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24% |
[ 16 ] |
| No |
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38% |
[ 25 ] |
| Who cares? Now where's my pie? |
|
36% |
[ 24 ] |
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| Total Votes : 65 |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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 Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:21 |
 
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I'd be fine with a limit of 2-3 teams per Race in Box. God knows I could use the incentive to clean out a couple of Human and Dwarf teams. |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:24 |
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| koadah wrote: | | Well, if you are sure that it would only be the CPOMbers that would go. |
Is that an indication that this thread will reach ten pages? |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:25 |
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| Rbthma wrote: |
Well, I'm new to the Box and so far my experience has been good. There of course are always teams that are problematic, but it seems no worse than in ranked tbh. |
As long as you play in the TV 1000-1500 range there is a reasonably race variety, at high TV it narrows down to cpomb nonsense, sadly.
| Rbthma wrote: |
If there's any issue, it might be with variety - I haven't faced many Elf, High Elf, Wood Elf, Norse, Slann, Halfling, Goblin, Ogre, Vampire, Amazon and Skaven teams. This may be an issue in other divisons however as some are not Tier 1 teams obviously. |
I'm currently activating Elves, High Elves, Slann, Amazons, Vampires, I try to bring variety to the Box. |
Last edited by MattDakka on %b %07, %2016 - %19:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:25 |
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| koadah wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: |
2. Coaches activating only one team per activation - mono activators. They benefit from mismatches in TV against their super cpomb team by making that the only option for other coaches to draw against.
Activation team quotas per coach would work some way towards solving both of those but ya'll want the freedom you have in Ranked without the repercussion of offering bad matchups in Ranked. Box has a free rider problem. |
Force people to activate teams that they don't want to play and they won't play at all. Then you are into "not enough coaches" territory.
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I'd love to test it.
I'm sure some coaches would lick their wounds and scurry off to Ranked and then get frustrated that their anti-social behavior was shut down then compromise and say "yes, these are my 4 teams that I always activate, and I will play them. This is the price of ensuring the fairest matchups possible. I only get a 1/4 shot of playing my Cpombers any given activation". OH THE HUMANITY!
I'm sure quite a few coaches would play Box again because now they can play their variety of teams without the fear of some knob only activating 1800+ Cpombers and then getting drawn up there as a 400 TV underdog. You might get back some people from Ranked whose sole reason for not play Box solely for the variety reasons.
Also, if this affects Sprints, tough shit. Getting the best possible outcomes in matchmaking from Box is more important than a fan created meta game. Spade is spade.
Also, some of the most entrenched people on the "I ONLY WANNA PLAY ONE TEAM" either have gone away forever or don't ever pipe up. I guess I can't fault an anti-social person for being anti-social but I will anyway. You wringing your hands over some theorized large yet silent contingent of nay sayers isn't going to cut it with me. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %07, %2016 - %19:%Sep; edited 3 times in total |
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Mr_Foulscumm
Joined: Mar 05, 2005
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:27 |
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| thoralf wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | Well, if you are sure that it would only be the CPOMbers that would go. |
Is that an indication that this thread will reach ten pages? |
 |
_________________
Everybody's favorite coach on FUMBBL |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:28 |
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| koadah wrote: | | licker wrote: |
And yet it seems the people who only activate the one team drive off other coaches anyway. Frankly it's simply time for forced diversity. If you can't find 3 teams you are willing to play then go @#$# yourself for the good of everyone else. |
Well, if you are sure that it would only be the CPOMbers that would go. |
It might not only be them but certainly the mediocre coaches who try and shortcut their way to wins via Cpomb would be put in a bind. They might actually learn to play. |
Last edited by mrt1212 on %b %07, %2016 - %19:%Sep; edited 1 time in total |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:45 |
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It's like we're asking for collegiate integration among the races and some people are worried that virulent racists are going to stop enrolling at the college. OH NO, WE CHASED OFF BAD FAITH ACTORS WHO WERE ENTIRELY SELF SERVING AND COULD EASILY DROP THE GAME WHEN EVEN A SMALL IMPEDIMENT WAS PLACED UPON THEIR CHOICE! THE HORROR! |
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Rbthma
Joined: Jan 14, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:49 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | licker wrote: |
And yet it seems the people who only activate the one team drive off other coaches anyway. Frankly it's simply time for forced diversity. If you can't find 3 teams you are willing to play then go @#$# yourself for the good of everyone else. |
Well, if you are sure that it would only be the CPOMbers that would go. |
It might not only be them but certainly the mediocre coaches who try and shortcut their way to wins via Cpomb would be put in a bind. They might actually learn to play. |
Couldn't these coaches presumably find 3 races that have enough cpomb on them though - Chaos, Nurgle, Pact. This might find slightly better individual matchups, but is it changing the culture? |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:53 |
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| koadah wrote: |
| harvestmouse wrote: |
A sporting example: Cycling: Do not attack while going through a tunnel, it's dangerous. Result: One guy did this, and never won a race again. Social rule that works. This isn't communism. |
This is the kind of logic a lot people simply will not understand.
If it is dangerous to attack in a tunnel why wouldn't you pass a rule saying "no attacking in a tunnel"? Seriously. |
Ok. Why is there a social rule? Because it's dangerous, due to being dark. Why isn't there an actual rule? Because sometimes tunnels are well lit or are open on one side, giving enough light.
How do you discern which are dangerous and which are not? By experience/common sense. Therefore if you have experience, you do not piss in the pond. You teach the young ones not to piss in the pond.
The same commonsense rules apply to bloodbowl. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:54 |
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| Rbthma wrote: |
Couldn't these coaches presumably find 3 races that have enough cpomb on them though - Chaos, Nurgle, Pact. This might find slightly better individual matchups, but is it changing the culture? |
At least building clawpombers would take more time, because the games played are split into 3 teams instead of just 1 monoactivated team. |
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bghandras
Joined: Feb 06, 2011
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:57 |
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@Harvestmouse: It is clear that you have hatred towards me, so there is no point arguing with you. I just state in the forum how to consume your rants about me.
Of course i find it hilarious
- Ranked argument, as i play very little ranked. I would probably consider dropping that argument just for the sake that next time you mention it will be even more hilarious.
- Pro elves, this is even better comment. Pro elves are clearly "overpowered", as their ARR status shows. Good stuff. Keep it coming! With this comment you only prove your bitterness. If it was not that hilarious and so agressively accusing, then i would be sorry for you.
I suggest your next post analysis that "proves" my blackbox pro elf team (https://fumbbl.com/p/team?op=view&showmatches=1&team_id=810199) picked their matchups, the rookie opponents, and so on. |
_________________
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:57 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Rbthma wrote: |
Couldn't these coaches presumably find 3 races that have enough cpomb on them though - Chaos, Nurgle, Pact. This might find slightly better individual matchups, but is it changing the culture? |
At least building clawpombers would take more time, because the games played are split into 3 teams instead of just 1 monoactivated team. |
The initial proposal was to split the races into 3 segments and require one team from each segment to be activated.
Nominally it was Mutations/Elfs/Everything else.
Though where teams like Skaven or Underworld would fall would have to be open to discussion.
Alternatively you just limit it to one Mutation team per activation and don't put any restrictions on the rest.
Since, yeah? Right? This is still about high TV cpomb right??? |
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harvestmouse
Joined: May 13, 2007
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 19:58 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | harvestmouse wrote: |
A life example: Not being an asswit: Stopping your car to let an elderly person to cross the road. Legally you don't need to do that. However not to be a ****, it's pretty much accepted as a social rule, you do it. |
In Italy if there is a pedestrian crossing you are legally compelled to slow down and stop to let the person cross the road. |
Not quite sure of the relevance. That's a law. If an elderly person by the side of the road is waiting to cross the road and you are the only traffic preventing them from doing so, what do you do? It's an example of morals, not common law. If you are the person preventing them from crossing, do you allow them or not?
| harvestmouse wrote: |
Is that ok? Seriously....teams winning upto 97% of their games based on dice......is that ok or even acceptable? My opinion is that is far from ok. Tipping games so that you win before the coin is tossed is far from ok. |
bghandras for sure keeps lean his rosters, but do you really think his Pro Elf 97% win rate is just due to that? 
You should blame the ruleset and the lack of house ruling.
[/quote]
That's very vague and actually kind of the point. I'm blaming BGhandras for taking advantage of any situation he can find to win. Did he make a pact with the devil that if he loses 3 matches in a row he goes to hell? He seems desperate to win, no matter the cost. Using TV to his advantage is one main factor. However he is extremely good at logical advantages. |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 20:00 |
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It's rather simple. People are competitive, they seek advantages. You can never eradicate min/max only change rules by which the min/max game is played.
Trying to end min/max is really looking for the Holy Grail. Regardless of whether it's a problem or not it's just how people are when they get competitive. |
_________________
DLE College 7s |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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| Posted:
Sep 07, 2016 - 20:03 |
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| Rbthma wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | koadah wrote: | | licker wrote: |
And yet it seems the people who only activate the one team drive off other coaches anyway. Frankly it's simply time for forced diversity. If you can't find 3 teams you are willing to play then go @#$# yourself for the good of everyone else. |
Well, if you are sure that it would only be the CPOMbers that would go. |
It might not only be them but certainly the mediocre coaches who try and shortcut their way to wins via Cpomb would be put in a bind. They might actually learn to play. |
Couldn't these coaches presumably find 3 races that have enough cpomb on them though - Chaos, Nurgle, Pact. This might find slightly better individual matchups, but is it changing the culture? |
Any proposal of enforced diversity that doesn't recognize the need for categorical groups is not a proposal at all.
Most people who have spent some amount of time thinking about this have drawn up the racial categories and here are mine
Mortals: Norse, Amazon, Human, Dwarf
Wicked: Chaos, Nurgle, Cdork, Pact, Underworld
Freaks: Lizardmen, Necro, Undead, Orc, Khemri
Speed: Pelfs, Delfs, Helfs, Welfs, Skaven
TARRible: Ogres, Goblins, Halflings, Slann, Vampires
I'm not in love with this organization but I think they do a good enough job of ensuring variety along similar team strengths. Other people have their own which are good too.
But you need to have the quota include this kind of qualifier otherwise yes, you're not really encouraging diversity in any meaningful way. |
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