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Poll
Is min/maxing a problem in Blackbox?
Yes
24%
 24%  [ 16 ]
No
38%
 38%  [ 25 ]
Who cares? Now where's my pie?
36%
 36%  [ 24 ]
Total Votes : 65


JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 12:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I've done a forum search and there doesn't seem to have been a poll before on this very simple question. I always thought it was generally accepted that min/maxing is a problem in the Blackbox, and has been pretty much ever since the division was started. However, I was quite surprised at how many people in this other recent thread on issues with TV are claiming that there is no issue with min/maxing.

It's a simple question, so why not do a poll to try to settle this? If it's not an issue, then fair enough, we can move on and point people to this poll when they start whining. If it is, then people that are claiming there is no issue will have to accept that their views don't represent the majority.

Please give your honest answer. By 'min/maxing', I am referring to the practice of actively exploiting deficiencies or loopholes in the TV pricing system, to try to achieve a game that is tilted so much in your favor that it is essentially over before it has even begun. For example, by exploiting the apparent under-costing of super-star/legend players by having 1-2 of them on a team, with all other players near-rookies (possibly through recycling of those players).

Disclaimer: This is not a CPOMB complaint thread - it is a poll to ask a simple question about a wider perceived issue of min/maxing. Please keep any discussion/complaints about CPOMB in this thread here.

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Last edited by JellyBelly on Sep 07, 2016 - 13:04; edited 1 time in total
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 12:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Is the question in the context of behaviour, pricing of stuff, both, or neither?

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 12:31 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Is the question in the context of behaviour, pricing of stuff, both, or neither?


More in the context of behaviour. I.e. are players behaving in a way as to actively exploit loopholes in the TV system. Of course, if they are then that implies that those loopholes exist in the first place.

If you think the loopholes in TV exist, but people aren't exploiting them (or they are, but it's not a problem), I would answer no.

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Last edited by JellyBelly on Sep 07, 2016 - 13:16; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 12:43 Reply with quote Back to top

Team management is part of the game. There will always be people who scream min/maxing when they see a 'well managed' team. Wink

How many leader/0 RR teams are there? Dunno.

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Balle2000



Joined: Sep 25, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 13:19 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
It's a simple question, so why not do a poll to try to settle this?

A poll won't settle this, it will only measure opinion bias. Need more in-depth analysis if you want this settled.


Last edited by Balle2000 on Sep 07, 2016 - 13:23; edited 1 time in total
Nextflux



Joined: Jan 22, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 13:23 Reply with quote Back to top

A problem team as I see it, is a team with maybe 2 legends and 0 RR and the rest rookies. which is a low TV team, playing against rookie teams is to me an exploit.
Other teams are just well managed, and not an exploit, but since there are no rules against it its not cheating, just really annoying.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 13:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Nextflux wrote:
A problem team as I see it, is a team with maybe 2 legends and 0 RR and the rest rookies. which is a low TV team, playing against rookie teams is to me an exploit.
Other teams are just well managed, and not an exploit, but since there are no rules against it its not cheating, just really annoying.


I'm not trying to suggest that anyone is cheating or breaking the rules, just asking whether players perceive that min/maxing is causing a problem.

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harvestmouse



Joined: May 13, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 13:39 Reply with quote Back to top

4 points I'd like to make are:

1: Firstly you'd have to define min/maxing. Everybody has their own idea of what the term means. The problem is that everybody to a certain degree 'manages' teams. So in a literal sense, everybody is a min/maxer. In a describing sense, then certain procedures are defined min/maxing.

2: Is it ok to gain such an advantage by managing your TV? Yes, good team management is important. Dice also play a factor. However in game actions should be the most important. Looking at some of the win rates of box teams that float at low weights; it's most certainly wrong in my opinion.

3: The game has been defined to low TV/Resurrection style format for competitive gaming in the last 10 years. This is ok for competitive gaming. Historically though games haven't been designed as a competitive game, however recently with games like League of Legends and Hearthstone it's opened up a new market.

Should BB cater to the competitive gamer? Or stay true to it's fantasy creation of a 'fantasy real sport'? For me, the substance of these competitive game universes are pretty trash. It's not where I'd like to see the game go, but as it was (before GW re-picked up the reigns); semi competitive gaming was the main outlet, and it shows in recent changes.

4: Is it ok to limit the game so much, which is what min/maxing does? We have 16 man rosters and lots of positionals available for each roster. With min/maxing it makes a lot of the scope of the game wasted. Norse throwers for example are dead under TV. However if they didn't affect your cost, which would you rather have a thrower or a lineman? If it didn't affect your TV would you rather have 16 or 11 players?

I think the best policy is to cater for as many sub-types of BB as possible. Tailoring out of game rules to play different formats. However, to have a universe that is so dominated by TV tailoring as the main outlet for the game is very very wrong in my opinion.
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
More in the context of behaviour. I.e. are players behaving in a way as to actively exploit loopholes in the TV system. Of course, if they are then that implies that those loopholes exist in the first place.


You almost make it sound like that would be a bad thing...
Nextflux



Joined: Jan 22, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 13:49 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:


I'm not trying to suggest that anyone is cheating or breaking the rules, just asking whether players perceive that min/maxing is causing a problem.


There is always someone who messes things up, be it in BB or in other matters. The classroom always have 1 idiot.
When rules are not clear enough, or nonexistent exploits will always happen. The responsibility to fix this lies with the leaders, and leaders tend to stick to the status-quo.

To answer if its causing a problem I would say: not more than any other usual place. However I dislike all exploits and idiots, and everything can be done better - always better.

Maybe cheathing is a too strong word, but its closely linked to the word exploit, so lets not call it cheating then, lets call it an exploit, because its what "the idiots" always does.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 13:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Cheating is against the rules. Now we have something that within the rules, but outside of the norm? Give me a break!

The last system i knew that had grey rules, and unknown expectation was the communist dictatorship. Come on people, you must be better than that.

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Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

The scheduler change has solved this problem. Rookie teams have protection for the first 15 games. I don't see many hardcore minmax teams in Box anymore. I find it interesting how much some people who never play Box think they have to say on the subject.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 14:37 Reply with quote Back to top

People have different opinions on what is minmaxed or just well managed, but I think that a team with 0 team re-rolls is clearly a minmaxed one.

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Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 14:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
The scheduler change has solved this problem. Rookie teams have protection for the first 15 games. I don't see many hardcore minmax teams in Box anymore. I find it interesting how much some people who never play Box think they have to say on the subject.


This is definitely a factor Vermi.

I play Box quite a bit now and in my over 550 box games I remember meeting 3, at most, minmaxed teams (no RR pact in my experience)

I do think there is a culture of jumping on the bandwagon for dissing box, which is a shame. Some coaches play 1 game in box, have a bad experience and that's it. I think it could be an acquired taste perhaps but I don't see a lot wrong with box at the minute. It's where I prefer to play if I don't have league or Tourney games.

What will our 145ers and newer coaches think? Very Happy
Timetis



Joined: Mar 31, 2014

Post   Posted: Sep 07, 2016 - 15:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Throweck wrote:
Verminardo wrote:
The scheduler change has solved this problem. Rookie teams have protection for the first 15 games. I don't see many hardcore minmax teams in Box anymore. I find it interesting how much some people who never play Box think they have to say on the subject.


This is definitely a factor Vermi.

I play Box quite a bit now and in my over 550 box games I remember meeting 3, at most, minmaxed teams (no RR pact in my experience)

I do think there is a culture of jumping on the bandwagon for dissing box, which is a shame. Some coaches play 1 game in box, have a bad experience and that's it. I think it could be an acquired taste perhaps but I don't see a lot wrong with box at the minute. It's where I prefer to play if I don't have league or Tourney games.

What will our 145ers and newer coaches think? Very Happy


What throweck said.

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