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Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 17:26 Reply with quote Back to top

There's lots of good points in here.
For me the major concern is this: we don't know how the seasonal idea would actually work in our environment. And we'll never really know until we test it, which looks like a major jump into the unknown.

Running a test division and further split the player base doesn't look very appealing.
I guess if and when these rules are implemented league will be the major place to playtest it.

As of now blackbox and ranked aren't really leagues tho. They're sandbox exhibition games where you set up to reach your own goals, whatever those may be.
Tournaments are the competitive side of Fumbbl.

That's what we have now and it works, leaping into the unknown isn't something many will want to do.

I feel like i can't even have an opinion until there's some playtested evidence of how the new rules work.
From a first impression it looks to me like it would further the gap between the best coaches and the rest, as well as encourage massive picking in ranked and deepen the gap with box teams.
But as i said, it could all be wrong and there's no way to really know except through empyrical playtest.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 17:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Uedder wrote:
From a first impression it looks to me like it would further the gap between the best coaches and the rest ...


I'm not sure this post-season re-hiring would even be a good thing in seasonal leagues, for this reason. If the pile of cash you have to maintain your team is dependent on performance, then it's going to reinforce the better coaches and handicap the lower performers, or those that are playing non-tier 1 teams.

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spelledaren



Joined: Mar 06, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 17:52 Reply with quote Back to top

T16 fouling would always be the sensible thing to do. Just saying.

If anything, a Black Box thing. In Ranked I fear it would just encourage even more picking.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

mister__joshua wrote:
Players who have played 2 or more seasons sometimes cost an extra 10k per season played to convince them to stay.


The "sometimes" is: roll a D6; if you roll under the number of seasons the player has played, he wishes to retire. The rulz do not say anything about a player who finished more than 6 seasons. My guess is that after that, only a 6 succeeds.

Also, it's 20K, not 10K, and it's 20K for each season the player has completed. The rulz do not state if a player who wants to retire still wants to retire afterwards. I suppose he does not, since the rulz does say that the payment a one-time thing. So rolling for the wish to retirement seems to be a recurring thing each season after the first two ones.

Finally, to re-hire players, you need to pay the cost shown for them on that season's roster. This I think means you need to pay for the skillz too.

If that's correct, a warrior with Block, Mighty Blow, and Claw who wishes to retire after his third season would need to be paid 100k + 60K + 60K = 220K.

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Last edited by thoralf on Nov 27, 2016 - 19:25; edited 6 times in total
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 18:01 Reply with quote Back to top

I forgot to add my own opinion.

First, this new mechanic of Resolving Downtime is in the New Official Rules chapter, so it's not facultative if one wishes to play by the new official rules.

Second, Death Zone 1 may not cover perpetual leagues. (It does not cover tournaments either.) So we might wish to wait for Death Zone N where it will. Contacting GW might be needed here.

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pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 18:27 Reply with quote Back to top

imho, a very stupid mechanic

OBBA will not be implementing this

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 18:41
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One point that seems to have come up a lot is that it'll create big gaps in teams. Having run the numbers on the teams in our tabletop league I don't think this is the case at all.

Bear in mind there's no extra for Winning in the formula, and even poorer players score some TDs and cause some cas. But even then, the majority of the gold comes from the games played, existing Treasury, and the initial 1m gold rebuy. The teams it benefited the most (by far) were the Ogres, goblins and lizards all of whom had been a bit beat up and needed to rebuy expensive players. The league winners could just about afford to keep their team in tact (first season, so no extra payments).

Try the formula on a few of your own teams and see what happens. I'd be interested to know Smile

Edit: which brings me to another plus point. Teams wouldn't get stuck in rebuild mode as they can replace all their injured players after a season

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Last edited by mister__joshua on Nov 27, 2016 - 19:03; edited 1 time in total
thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 18:48 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
What makes you think R & B are anything more than a series of exhibition games?


The rulz for Exhibition games, basically.

You create a team for one game.

You can hire Star Players.

If you hire the same SP as the opposing coach, he or she gows to the one who paid him most.

No SPPs is gained.

The teams are disbanded after the game.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 19:29 Reply with quote Back to top

thoralf wrote:
ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
What makes you think R & B are anything more than a series of exhibition games?


The rulz for Exhibition games, basically.

-snip-



I probably should have been more careful with my choice of words remembering which forum I was frequenting, but for the avoidance of doubt, the words "warm-up matches", "training games", "friendlies", "non-tournament/league fixtures" could all be equally applied to games played in R & B for the same effective question without immediately invoking a preordained definition from the rulebook.

mister__joshua wrote:
One point that seems to have come up a lot is that it'll create big gaps in teams. Having run the numbers on the teams in our tabletop league I don't think this is the case at all.

Bear in mind there's no extra for Winning in the formula, and even poorer players score some TDs and cause some cas. But even then, the majority of the gold comes from the games played, existing Treasury, and the initial 1m gold rebuy. The teams it benefited the most (by far) were the Ogres, goblins and lizards all of whom had been a bit beat up and needed to rebuy expensive players. The league winners could just about afford to keep their team in tact (first season, so no extra payments).

Try the formula on a few of your own teams and see what happens. I'd be interested to know Smile

Edit: which brings me to another plus point. Teams wouldn't get stuck in rebuild mode as they can replace all their injured players after a season


I assume you are accounting for the likelihoods of "expensive mistakes" etc in your calculations for expected treasury? And understanding the possible consequences of it runnning forward in future seasons?

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Last edited by ArrestedDevelopment on Nov 27, 2016 - 19:39; edited 1 time in total
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

There is certainly a very significant risk of confusing people and bogging down conversation with needless rule dissection to the point they don't mean what they're supposed to mean anymore and it becomes a stream of overbearing pedantry. There has been a really dumb debate over a slightly different wording to Wrestle today that was utterly pointless and confusing for more casual coaches. Nerds, eh?
uzkulak



Joined: Mar 30, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 19:47 Reply with quote Back to top

So, if I want to maintain a tv2000 team I need to somehow find an extra one million gold PLUS extra cash for players who have more than one season under their belt. Even if a season is 20 games thats going to be a very hard ask. 20 matches x 10k = 200k, add my average of 1.4 tds per match and 2.2 cas = 360k means I need another 440k in my treasury. Realistically long term there's probably another 100k needed to retain the better players. This is exceptionally tight financially and doesnt leave a lot of room for manouvere if Im also replacing any players mid-season.

The only good thing about it is that I would be able to shed unwanted ff.

If a season is only 10-15 games long it is completely impossible to keep a high tv team running. Many actual leagues have fewer than 10 matches per season which increases costs while providing less income to cover them. I think league commissioners will need to think carefully about how they would implement this change and if they want to create a low tv environment or not.
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 19:53
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That's about correct uzkulak, yes. The idea I think is that you wouldn't be able to maintain a TV that high with that length of season. The length of the season would be proportional to how high TV would expect to get.

As I said, it'd definitely be different. It might not be for everyone. Probably won't be for most people, judging by the comments. But, to take your example, you're then going to end up with some tough decisions and a TV of around 1700TV. Other people (with that length of season) would gravitate towards that amount too thus TV gaps would generally be smaller.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

That (wrestle) particular argument was specifically inane especially since anyone familiar with the rules on turnovers should know what was being proposed was ludicrous.

I'm glad you mentioned "more casual coaches" though. Because if one were to check the majority of games played on FUMBBL each day, I'd be willing to bet most of the teams seen on the games page in R&B will never, ever enter a tournament of any kind. Nor will they be used as any measure of skill or ability. And quite a lot of coaches playing with those teams might very well consider low-mid TV somewhat akin to "deadzone TR" "pseudo-chess" Wink.

For all we all treasure our tournaments (of both large KO and the NAF non-prog, which this idiot keeps forgetting to submit his team for) there are an awful lot of coaches on this site who have absolutely no interest in any of them. It's the white elephant in the room - for all we treasure the competitive (as in competitive gaming) nature of BB, I'd wager a lot of people who simply don't speak up aren't really too concerned about that at all.

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JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 20:09 Reply with quote Back to top

Perhaps worth mentioning: this inter-season player buyback mechanic seems to have a similar intent to 'aging' in LRB4 - increasing attrition outside of the game itself and preventing teams from hovering indefinitely at high-TV. It could be argued that some extra attrition may be needed with the removal of PO; however, I was around during the LRB4 days on FUMBBL and aging seemed to be a very unpopular mechanic, often criticised.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 27, 2016 - 20:40 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
Ithe words "warm-up matches", "training games", "friendlies", "non-tournament/league fixtures" could all be equally applied to games played in R & B for the same effective question without immediately invoking a preordained definition from the rulebook.


Since R & B are supposed to follow the rulz as much as possible, invoking preordained definitions from the rulzbook is far from being irrelevant, let alone pedant.

R & B are eternal leegz. Kommissarz are Kommissarz of leegz. The Big C is R & B's Kommissar. Deal with it.

Nothing confusing there. Any interpretation that breaks this structure will be confusing. Epiloguing on pedantry is noise.

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