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Poll
Is Chainsaw a cry baby?
Nuffle loves tears
48%
 48%  [ 15 ]
No, babies only cry when hungry or soiled
22%
 22%  [ 7 ]
Salty tear pie
29%
 29%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 31


Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 14:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I didn't realise this was the case until last night. Not intending to name and shame, rather to give an example among many, but in my game last night Dominik took over 30s to decide on a particular block dice result during his turn. I noticed during this long wait that his turn timer was paused. The turn ended up very near the 4 minute mark. If you included all the dialogs then he was probably over 5 minutes for that turn. (And I finally realised why I can take 90s/turn yet be in games close to 2 hours long... the math never did add up before.)

Firstly, this is exploitable. Feeling tight on time? Throw a block and extend it. It is even unintentionally exploitable. Dominik was being quite thorough in his choices, which I think was just him wanting to choose the best result, and because of this I reckon the majority of his turns were well over 4 minutes, some possibly over 5 minutes.

Secondly, deciding which dice to pick is just as much a part of your turn as any other aspect of strategy and decision making.

Thirdly, on table top, does the timer stop when you roll dice? Nope.

Fourth, even Dominik agrees! I'll quote his response in the match report where I noted the exploit: "I have to agree that the timer shall not stop during the block result decision of the active coach."

So... is there a technical reason why this occurs?

I'm sure there's somebody reading this who just says, "STFU 'Saw, learn patience." I can be patient, but not when playing BB. I think it's unfair to have to stare at a screen for 5 minutes in case I'm needed for a dialog. It is usually late at night after work, exercise, kids, and whatever else the day entails. I have to do something else (and I'm sure many others do so too) to stay awake or not go mad - such as browsing the web, programming, reading etc. Given I'm on the computer It makes tight games quite tiring as they drag on for nearly 2 hours despite my best efforts to expedite them. It's not social, like tabletop, and my time is of some value to me and I try to treat my opponent as I would like to be treated - not prevaricating for long periods over relatively basic decisions/strategy. Not everybody has the same attitude, hence they have no problem using the full "turn time" as Dominik puts it instead of using the 4 minutes as a last resort "turn limit" as I think of it. I respect the different perspectives, but I think it is important the client properly recognises what is turn time and what is not, and currently it does not.

TL;DR: active player's turn timer should continue to count during all dialogs under their control including dice selections they have to make (but obviously pause whilst waiting for an opponent).

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Last edited by Chainsaw on Dec 14, 2016 - 14:21; edited 1 time in total
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 14:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Makes sense to me. Not that people should be timed out, but clock should continue to tick.

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"This is turning into the best thing on FUMBBL" - Seventyone
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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 14:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I would put this in the category of exploiting a known bug. Sorry Smile I'm all for people taking the time that they are allowed but the rules are quite clear. I've never timed anyone out and agree that in most cases we should just have fun but if it's a situation where the rules should be being stuck to, then it's cheating.

EDIT if of course the timer is stuck in their turn on a box they need to decide upon. If it is not stuck or it is a box their opponent needs to decide upon it is, of course, fair enough.


Last edited by Harad on Dec 14, 2016 - 14:32; edited 2 times in total
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 14:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I wasnt aware it stopped for their choices, only for the non active players.
It shouldn't.

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Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 14:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I checked two games and it seems that sometimes the counter appears to stop but when the block is resolved, a few seconds are added at once.

BTW: how are apothecary decisions, Side Step, -2dbs and so on handled in table top concerning the 4 minute turn time limit?
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 14:47 Reply with quote Back to top

Putting aside all of the usual arguments about the timer, in it's current implementation, the clock should absolutely continue in this instance. While you're deciding beteen push and POW it ticks, while the Sidestepper decides where to fall over, it stops (or 'should', if it doesn't).

I was delighted when, in the run-up to the new rules being published, we were hearing 4 min / IP was being moved to the optional section (where PO now lives; the bit no-one uses), since 4 min turns are not a thing on TT and we on FUMBBL could sort out a more elegant solution for our platform than the one we have. The actual rules are printed in a far more woolly manner than advertised in this area (it's now optional in the same way 'all things are optional, duh, it's your game. No one uses it anyway, right? What do you mean some people like to do exactly as is written to the letter?!'), so I expect we're more likely to be stuck with our current method and 'fixing' this might well go on the list.
Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 15:31 Reply with quote Back to top

For Fumbbl the simplest solution would be to have chess locks for 45 minutes each. Your clock would be going during your turn and your opponent's clock during theirs. Ideally this could also be automated so that when waiting during your turn for you opponent to make a decision (e.g. sidestep, apothecary etc.) it is their time and not yours running out. Simples.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 15:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Endzone wrote:
For Fumbbl the simplest solution would be to have chess locks for 45 minutes each. Your clock would be going during your turn and your opponent's clock during theirs. Ideally this could also be automated so that when waiting during your turn for you opponent to make a decision (e.g. sidestep, apothecary etc.) it is their time and not yours running out. Simples.

Online magic does that, and sometimes people give up the game by let the clock running, and being idle. Also some people abuse it by going idle, then pass back the priority. I am not sure i agree with this recommendation.

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"This is turning into the best thing on FUMBBL" - Seventyone
"THIS LEAGUE IS AWESOME!!!!" - Kummo
"Last league i would leave." - SpecialOne
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 15:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I think coming up with solutions is a bit off topic and unless we're careful, this will become a standard timeout thread. Having said that, that's not my preferred solution either. Wink
Chainsaw



Joined: Aug 31, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 15:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Dominik wrote:
I checked two games and it seems that sometimes the counter appears to stop but when the block is resolved, a few seconds are added at once.

BTW: how are apothecary decisions, Side Step, -2dbs and so on handled in table top concerning the 4 minute turn time limit?

No, I watched it. It was stuck on 3:02 at the time and after you selected the dice some 30s+ later it went to 3:03.

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Matthueycamo



Joined: May 16, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 15:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Ah yes, let's make Fumbbl more like cyanide games. Because making people feel like chatting a lot to each other would harm their result is a great way to foster community.

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misterlonestar



Joined: Oct 02, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 15:58 Reply with quote Back to top

I like the idea of the chess lock, but would hope that would include decisions made during opponents turn such as sidestep, apo, etc. Nothing worse than having to wait five minutes for a decision because your opponent decided to "multi-task".

Yes there are opportunities for abuse but no more than is the case now but would go a long way to standardizing the length of matches.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 16:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Strange. I was pretty sure it did not stop for block die selection. In fact, I can think of a few games I'd probably still be playing if it did! Wink

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kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 16:38 Reply with quote Back to top

About chatting in fumbbl: i recommend strongly only write during opponents turn. That makes your turn go faster (game will be shorter) and usually you have much time to answer during his turn.

I follow that rule a lot but not strictly. If opponent is very chatty, i might join along, if he is new, i might explain things during my turn, if i'm not in a hurry then i don't care.. then there are questions or moments you have to react instantly, like brb, phonecall, having to check something (like some rules you are not sure how it should work.. i sometimes have to check my treasury or next opponent when deciding if i want to apo or not).. so there are cases when i chat a bit during my turn and let my opponent chat freely during theirs, but sometimes i have told my opponent to try to play during their turn and chat during my turn.. just to keep game going smoother.

Would recommend for everyone.
Uedder



Joined: Aug 03, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 14, 2016 - 16:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Endzone wrote:
For Fumbbl the simplest solution would be to have chess locks for 45 minutes each. Your clock would be going during your turn and your opponent's clock during theirs. Ideally this could also be automated so that when waiting during your turn for you opponent to make a decision (e.g. sidestep, apothecary etc.) it is their time and not yours running out. Simples.


This would be enough for you to play one half each game tho... maybe this would give your opponents a slim chance of winning?
I think the way timeouts are handled on Fumbbl is good as it is.
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