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Notgivingname



Joined: Dec 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2017 - 22:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Harpy: 0-16 60,000 6/3/3/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw GA/SP
Harpy Scout: 0-2 80,000 7/2/4/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw GA/SP
Harpy Warrior: 0-2 110,000 7/3/3/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Juggernaut, Stab, Strip Ball GSA/P
Brood Mother: 0-2 120,000 7/3/4/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw, Guard GA/SP

Rerolls: 60,000

Apothocary: Yes

Background: Harpies are vicious creatures that live on the edge of the territories of the chaos wastes, the troll country, and the lands of man, drawn to the same darkness that calls the Beastmen. The Harpies are capable of flight, terrorizing lone targets when opportunities present themselves. However, Harpies will only attack larger forces in open battle if the Harpies have an overwhelming force in comparison.

Rational: As said above, harpies are both vicious and cowardly creatures. Their ability of flight is represented by very long legs and Leap. While they are agile creatures, they are not elf levels of agile on the ground, so everyone has agility access. Claw is also a requirement, as they always either have claws on all their limbs or razor sharp talons on their feet. They go into battle basically naked, so I am unsure if they should have 6 or 7 armor.

The Harpy Scout is a smaller but more nimble Harpy, so one less strength for one more agility, with the addition of one more speed as well.

The Harpy Warrior was tricky. I wanted it to fit a similar roll as the Slann Blitzer (a jumping blitzer with unusual starting skills). The Warriors are stronger than your average harpy, so I gave them strength access and Juggernaut, but also slightly less wild, so it starts with strip ball (imagine they are using their taloned feet to get the ball free while also attacking with their hands). I don't want another killing team, so I replaced Claw with stab on this character (pretend it's expertly using it's claw to stab at the weak points rather than wildly trying to cut through everything).

Brood Mothers are basically better and more expensive harpies, as I haven't been able to find much in the way of how Harpies leadership works. If there is a more lore appropriate positional that can replace them, I am all ears.

EDIT 2: I have made major alterations.

EDIT: I have made several alterations to the team. I have italicized the irrelevant parts of this post.

First thing I have changed the linemen from the Harpies themselves to Ungors (which I admit I have shamelessly taken from Secert League). Apparently harpies are somewhat willing to work with Beastmen, as Harpies are going to be a troop choice for the Beastmen in Total War: Warhammer.

However I didn't want regular Beastmen on this team because A. we do not need more claw killers and B. I doubt the Beastmen would lower themselves to playing besides harpies if they could play with the Warriors of Chaos or Bestigors. Thus, Ungors the linemen are Ungors basically forced into playing (thus the addition of animosity).

Under Rbthma's suggestion, I have changed the Harpies strength down too 2, removed bonehead, and raised their armor back up 7. As he put it, the Harpies are not quite as strong as a regular human on the ground. To reflect their swarming/cowardly nature, I gave the Flock Mothers Guard. However, having four leaping guard equipped agility four players again would probably be a problem, so I reduced their number down to two.

While this team is not as much of an unreliable glass jaw as my original design, they still are very fragile team with only two strength three players that relies on hitting targets of oppertunity and avoid getting stuck in close contact at all costs.

I am unsure if I should or should not give the harpies any kind of mutation access. While the harpies do have some connection too Chaos, I couldn't find any references of Harpies being granted mutations nor sprouting out random mutations.

However, a team of clawed agility four leapers was obviously going to be a massively overpowered, so the team needed some weaknesses. I chose armor six as harpies always fly into battle naked. At first I made the harpies only have strength 2, but I have read cases where Harpies picked up humans and flew away, so strength 2 didn't make any sense.

I remembered that Harpies are cowardly creatures by nature that only find bravery to attack in great numbers. As team sizes are limited to eleven, Harpies are not going to find such bravery on the bloodbowl field. I gave them all bonehead. It does not represent Harpies being too stupid to play, but rather it represents them being petrified with fear.


Last edited by Notgivingname on Jan 24, 2017 - 05:41; edited 2 times in total
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2017 - 23:02 Reply with quote Back to top

jesus, the ultimate glass-jaw team

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Rbthma



Joined: Jan 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 23, 2017 - 23:51 Reply with quote Back to top

I haven't messed around with team creation at all but... S2 on the harpies can make sense if you think of them as being weaker when on the ground, then they could have AV7 at least. I would get rid of bone-head too- 6 Ogres with bone-head are a pain, but 7+ players with it... o_O. It also doesn't simulate the cowardly nature very well either. Perhaps guard on the flock mothers would promote the swarming strategy they are known for? (they feel safe around the mums?) AV7 can be touch and go, so AV6 is probably terrible, especially without Dodge or Block.

As it is, I probably wouldn't touch that team unless I really liked to torture myself. Enjoyed the background read though Very Happy
Notgivingname



Joined: Dec 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2017 - 02:06 Reply with quote Back to top

Rbthma wrote:
I haven't messed around with team creation at all but... S2 on the harpies can make sense if you think of them as being weaker when on the ground, then they could have AV7 at least. I would get rid of bone-head too- 6 Ogres with bone-head are a pain, but 7+ players with it... o_O. It also doesn't simulate the cowardly nature very well either. Perhaps guard on the flock mothers would promote the swarming strategy they are known for? (they feel safe around the mums?) AV7 can be touch and go, so AV6 is probably terrible, especially without Dodge or Block.

As it is, I probably wouldn't touch that team unless I really liked to torture myself. Enjoyed the background read though Very Happy


Good points. I will make some alterations.
Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2017 - 03:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Really cool. Here are my 2 cents.

First, I'm not sure why the harpies can't have positionals - they'd have warriors and scouts and such. It's a nice concept for a team - love the background - but it feels like it needs something? I'm also not sure harpies would be as agile as elves, especially on the ground. Maybe for their more experienced players? I think armour 7 without any defenses and strength 2 is really asking for trouble too, especially with little in return - other teams are faster, handle the ball better or already do the leap thing. Perhaps a big guy to help them out, like halflings, or revise their strength to 3 as they originally were? The brood mothers would still be effective with guard with that, but the team could actually bash a little more. Either that or the harpies perhaps get dodge or wrestle as a defense mechanism?

Also, why so many ungors? Harpies might go to war with beastmen, but they fly in huge flocks. It's somewhat amusing the lore describes them as both rare and existing in these large, ragged groups :S are they rare or not?! Anyway, maybe the ungors would work better as positionals? Certainly it feels weird to have a harpy team mostly with non-harpies. I don't see them having animosity if they team with the harpies so much, but perhaps loner to represent them not being fully accepted?

Maybe something like the above?

Ungors: 0-2 60,000 7/2/3/7 Sure Hands, Dodge, Loner AP/GS
Ungors didn't serve any roll in the team other than cheap linemen. Having non-harpies as linemen in a harpy team feels off? Like this they're useful for picking up the ball or being made into a passer, using dodge to get out of trouble. Strength 2 on a lineman is asking them to be slaughtered even more than armour 7 usually results in. Instead, I suggest they fulfil an initial ball carrier roll and try to hand off to a harpy. The loner makes them less reliable, but sure hands and dodge give them built in RRs for those two things. It's also fitting they have passing access - it makes sense for one to become a leader to direct the harpies for example.

Harpy: 0-16 60,000 6/3/3/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw GA/SP
Making these the linemen so making them cheaper was a must. Out with agility 4, in with strength 3. Otherwise the same except a little slower - there is nothing in the fluff suggesting they run especially fast on land. Very long legs and leap give them extra movement when they need it. This does mean lower cost so these can actually serve on your front line.

Harpy Warrior: 0-2 90,000 6/3/3/7 Block, Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw SA/GP
These are your blitzers and the only reliable blockers on the team from creation. They have strength skill access and they're perhaps a little cheaper than they should be, but they are good for getting where they need to be.

Harpy Champion: 0-2 100,000 7/3/3/7 Frenzy, Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw GSA/P
These can swiftly rise to be star players, but they are unreliable to begin with. Still, the extra movement and GSA skill access means they can score quickly when needed.

Flock Mother: 0-2 100,000 5/3/4/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw, Guard GA/SP
Being older and protective it makes sense she'd be slower. This would reduce her cost. She's still useful for moving to where she's needed to throw in a guard, but now she might have to use leap to do it. Thankfully she has high agility borne from experience. The lower movement also makes her less likely to be the default goal scorer on the team.

Rerolls: 60k

6 harpies - 360k
1 ungor - 60k
2 harpy warriors - 180k
1 harpy champion - 100k
1 flock mother - 100k
= 800k
3 RR and 20k spare
OR 2RR and apothecary and 30k spare
OR 2 RR and 2nd flock mother and 2nd harpy champion (all positions filled)

Is agility 4 crucial to the team identity? If so there's some argument for creating the team more like an elf team - more expensive players and starting with less positionals. Slann have the leap thing going and it's great at agility 3, but with agility 4 across the board it will be much stronger. Still, I'm not sure that and above average movement is enough to define a team if it only has 3 player types, terrible strength (making claw far less helpful), guard only helping to get 1 die blocks unless you somehow get ahead in players so you can gang up (which will be very unlikely, especially with low armour and no defenses), and the ungors not really contributing much to the team. They're comparable to Amazon linewomen at 50k each and with dodge, but they trade a point of strength for a point of movement and gain animosity too? That makes them much worse at linemen duties for very, very little utility (since other players are just as fast or faster). I'd reconsider that at least.
Notgivingname



Joined: Dec 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2017 - 05:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Guardikai wrote:
Really cool. Here are my 2 cents.

First, I'm not sure why the harpies can't have positionals - they'd have warriors and scouts and such.


I wasn't able to find much in the way of lore or details on their troops. Can you send me any links? I would love to fill out this team with more lore friendly positionals.

I will try to make a Warrior and a Scout immediately.

Quote:
I'm also not sure harpies would be as agile as elves, especially on the ground. Maybe for their more experienced players? I think armour 7 without any defenses and strength 2 is really asking for trouble too, especially with little in return - other teams are faster, handle the ball better or already do the leap thing.


I feared making an agility four leapers a problem, but you do have a point that they might be better with lower agility.

Quote:
Perhaps a big guy to help them out, like halflings, or revise their strength to 3 as they originally were? The brood mothers would still be effective with guard with that, but the team could actually bash a little more. Either that or the harpies perhaps get dodge or wrestle as a defense mechanism?


Is there any big guy in particular which would actually fit? I found a reference to a giant eagle thing Harpies sometimes steal eggs from, but I couldn't find any more detail, or if they would ever be able to get these beasts on their side.

Quote:
Also, why so many ungors? Harpies might go to war with beastmen, but they fly in huge flocks. It's somewhat amusing the lore describes them as both rare and existing in these large, ragged groups :S are they rare or not?!


That confused me as well.

Quote:
Anyway, maybe the ungors would work better as positionals? Certainly it feels weird to have a harpy team mostly with non-harpies. I don't see them having animosity if they team with the harpies so much, but perhaps loner to represent them not being fully accepted?


Well my thinking with that was that with all your positionals you have eight harpies with three ungors on the field, however I will gladly drop the Ungors if I had other positionals.

Quote:
Maybe something like the above?

Ungors: 0-2 60,000 7/2/3/7 Sure Hands, Dodge, Loner AP/GS
Ungors didn't serve any roll in the team other than cheap linemen. Having non-harpies as linemen in a harpy team feels off? Like this they're useful for picking up the ball or being made into a passer, using dodge to get out of trouble. Strength 2 on a lineman is asking them to be slaughtered even more than armour 7 usually results in. Instead, I suggest they fulfil an initial ball carrier roll and try to hand off to a harpy. The loner makes them less reliable, but sure hands and dodge give them built in RRs for those two things. It's also fitting they have passing access - it makes sense for one to become a leader to direct the harpies for example.

Harpy: 0-16 60,000 6/3/3/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw GA/SP
Making these the linemen so making them cheaper was a must. Out with agility 4, in with strength 3. Otherwise the same except a little slower - there is nothing in the fluff suggesting they run especially fast on land. Very long legs and leap give them extra movement when they need it. This does mean lower cost so these can actually serve on your front line.

Harpy Warrior: 0-2 90,000 6/3/3/7 Block, Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw SA/GP
These are your blitzers and the only reliable blockers on the team from creation. They have strength skill access and they're perhaps a little cheaper than they should be, but they are good for getting where they need to be.

Harpy Champion: 0-2 100,000 7/3/3/7 Frenzy, Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw GSA/P
These can swiftly rise to be star players, but they are unreliable to begin with. Still, the extra movement and GSA skill access means they can score quickly when needed.

Flock Mother: 0-2 100,000 5/3/4/7 Very Long Legs, Leap, Claw, Guard GA/SP
Being older and protective it makes sense she'd be slower. This would reduce her cost. She's still useful for moving to where she's needed to throw in a guard, but now she might have to use leap to do it. Thankfully she has high agility borne from experience. The lower movement also makes her less likely to be the default goal scorer on the team.

Rerolls: 60k

6 harpies - 360k
1 ungor - 60k
2 harpy warriors - 180k
1 harpy champion - 100k
1 flock mother - 100k
= 800k
3 RR and 20k spare
OR 2RR and apothecary and 30k spare
OR 2 RR and 2nd flock mother and 2nd harpy champion (all positions filled)
Interesting team, although I have a problem with the Warrior. I don't want another easy clawpomb team. :/

As for your last point, you are right agility four is not completely necessary. Agility three maybe enough, considering the Harpies are constantly going up and down it might cause them landing issues they otherwise don't have.
Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 24, 2017 - 21:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Why not give them an easy clawpomb? You wanted them to be glass cannons, right? It'd definitely be different to other teams if they had it. Only maybe Slaanesh are close in SL, but they have more agility and other aspects to them instead.

The lore of Warhammer is different, in small yet keys ways, to the world of BB. Someone must know more about harpies in this world. I've not got anything on beastmen or dark elves hand - but the fact that they follow both armies would imply there are two different kind of harpies. The dark elves keep them in towers for example - I do recall that.
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