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moussambani



Joined: May 13, 2004

Post 21 Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 05:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi there. This is something I'd love to build, but I want something where all Amazon experts have their say.

I had a small run in this site 11 years ago, mained an amazon team to a whopping 6-5-20 record. So obviously, I'm not the best player in the planet. That goes without saying.

But what am I talking about? What's that thing I want to build? Well. Recently I've started thinking about Blood Bowl again. I've seen different guides and playbooks on how to play the Amazons, and also listened to a podcast that had three episodes discussing the team.

But these playbooks and guides, while generally very good and by people with better experience than mine, are ultimately the view of a single player, and thus show their play style. And if there's one place where Amazons dominate, that's versatility.

So the idea is we discuss in a civilized manner and accept all sensible opinions, in order to concentrate in a single document all our knowledge about the Amazons. I want the other team to envy us not only for our team discipline, our determination on the pitch, and our charm outside of it, but also because we have a playbook model the other teams would want to copy.

Now, maybe you think what I am proposing here is not possible, but since when does that stop us Amazon players?

I want this document to be thorough, but enjoyable and easy to follow. I want it to show the players that want to learn how to use Amazons their options, rather than artificially constraining it to a single coach's view. I want this document to discuss the different situations you can encounter when playing with an Amazon team. But of course, I need the help of all the better coaches out there.

In the next post I will try to put everything I want to discuss (That table of contents, of course, is also open to discussion. If you feel I failed to include something, feel free to suggest that too). Please don't let this die. If this works, it should be an awesome contribution to this game.

PS: Those pitch diagrams with the blue and yellow circles, I think those are the clearest and easiest to follow around. Does anyone know how to make them, though?
moussambani



Joined: May 13, 2004

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 05:50 Reply with quote Back to top

Suggested Table of Contents (My comments in brackets)

- Explanation of the different positions (Strength: Versatility. Weakness: Slow and Squishy).

- Play Style (Amazons are NOT a Passing Team. A Quick Pass, even Thrower to Catcher in open field, is a 79% play for the gain of three squares at best. But the option is there if one wants it).

- Roster creation.
(Foundation: 7 Line, 4 Blitz, 3 RR for 860, I think. A positional is +20, Extra Player, RR, Apo +50)
(My opinion: Catchers are OK at start because of the Agility access)

- Development
(One thing I heard in that podcast. Amazons can develop Kicking linos and Receiving linos if they so desire. Don't think any other team has the option there. Diversity is our strong suit).

- Ideal Full Roster (All Positionals and 6 Lines, with 4 RR?)

- Skill progressions (There's three-four valid ways for Linewomen? Throwers-Catchers usually carriers, but it's good to have a pass option, I think. Blitzers also have a couple ways).

- Progression with an early double
- Progression with an early AG
- Progression with an early ST
(Early would be first two rolls, I think. Later than that it's a good bonus but might be too late to taylor it in. I think these special progressions are needed because these good rolls might define the role a player should have in our teams. Don't put Dirty Player on the ST4 Linewomen. What do we do with an AG4 Thrower? MA 7 or AV 8?)
NOTE: Again, the idea is show options. Good builds. Don't have just one build for each position and leave it at that.

- Roster Management (When is it time to retire a player?)

- Inducements (Babes and extra Apos may be good, because we are squishy. We don't fall often, granted. But when we do, it hurts. Training and Chef are kinda useless to us. Bribes? Wizard?)

- Star Players (Three categories here)
- Cheap (Helmut and Willow. Helmut is unreliable and a one-off. Willow can hold the line, but can she do something else?)
- Middle Prize (Here's where it's at. Three excellent options. Roxana vs Dash, Bertha vs Bash, Zara vs Undead)
- Morg. (Is there a situation where Morg is better than a different Star Player+Willow or other inducements?)

- Formations and Tactics (Standard plan: 2-1 Grind)

- The Amazons called Tails and won the toss. They choose to...

- Defensive (General vs Bash or vs Dash. If more than one option, great. And 2TTD and 1TTD for when we score on turn 7 or 8. How and when to stall the opponents, and how and when to speed the opponents)

- Offensive (Here Again the usual should be a long drive. But how do we react to different speeds as we need? That is as follows)
- Regular play: 6 to 8 turns to score. (Either we receive, or we force a quick turnover/score)
- Fast play: 4-ish turns (Trying to make the opposition score but they took some time anyways. Now what? What do we need?)
- Desperate: 2 turn TD (A failed stall, but we still have two turns. Can we do it? Here's where that passing option would shine, so if a Thrower gets AG4 quickly...)
- One turn touchdown? (We cannot stop the opponent's grind and they equalize in turn 16. Now we have one turn for the miracle. Note that this is a VERY unlikely play, but there's no real option here. Even worse if we failed to score and we're 0-1, or suffered a turnover and now we lose 1-2)
- Blitz or Turnover in our favor! (First half: Try to score and go for the 2-0. Second half: Do we take a fast 2-0? In what situations is that safer than grinding?)
- Blitz or Turnover in our opponent's favor! (How do we recover?)

I think that's it. As I said, everything here is open to discussion. I know the project is ambitious, but let's show the world our Amazon pride! Smile
Naru1981



Joined: Jan 01, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 08:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Why not get playing them again on here?

Go through each point you made here. keep a record of thing you tried and results

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 10:34 Reply with quote Back to top

Good luck with this endeavour. I am going to make one suggestion:

Don't accept all sensible opinions.

One of the things that I find perplexing in questions to the forums about tactics or approaches is that coaches often weigh opinions in a democratic fashion. Whilst there are lots of problems with the ways that good coaches are measured, you can make some reasonably safe assumptions.

So if bghandras or Endzone comments, particularly on low tv amazons, weigh their opinion much higher than others. Or if Dhaktokh, comments on playing high tv zons in tournaments, listen. The one caveat to that is if their strategy or approach is a good one for a highly skilled coach but perhaps not for a lower skilled coach.

But weight lower the opinion of 'star' coaches who say that it's important to have amazons for offence and defence and switch them Smile
Indigo



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 10:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Play them as full-on bash, ignore notions of any other play style and concentrate on your positioning. Prioritise guard on Blitzers and block on all other players. Two catchers in your roster can be very handy for "getting out of jail" with a desperate handoff.

Play them as a very survivable, low AV bash grindy team and see how you get on.

I'd love to see how you get on against each different race, most say Dwarf is the worst matchup but for me I find the higher strength teams more of a problem.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 11:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I would go with a compact analysis about the strength of amazons?
1. Cheap and underpriced linos. Best value among all teams.
2. Core skills easily accessible.
3. Pomber (best skill combo) is 2 skill away.
4. Blodge is 1 or 0 skill away.

Weakness:
Peak too low. Team is best at low TV, but can compete well at mid TV.
- Hard to improve on the 8/9 at dodging
- Armor7

Build:
- Rearolls are cheap but rarely needed much due to easy access to built in rerolls.
- Always have linos for bench. 2 reserves easily attainable.
- I almost never buy catcher or thrower, rather develop linos for various roles.
Starting build is 2 or 3 rerolls, 4 blitzers, apo, rest linos, nothing else.

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bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 11:48 Reply with quote Back to top

I usually try the bash game 1st including fouling. When that does not work then switch to plan B and dash.

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Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Good luck with this - I'll be watching closely. I'd be very curious about the views of some of the coaches with amazing Amazon team records. I've seen a couple who had something like 20/3/2 (or better!) against various teams and skilled coaches. Would love to know how they do it! Smile
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 15:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Guardikai, so amazons in ranked = only lose when you want to. And at low tv in the box, they are awesome. Unless you get dorfs your opponent is unlikely to have tackle and you may have 6,7 or even more blodge players. Throw in some guard and mighty blow and they are probably the strongest team at that tv with great odds of winning if played conservatively. You occasionally draw dwarves and have to play well or hope the other coach is poor. I'm not diminishing the achievement as some coaches can't get good results even with these advantages but they are about as good as it gets Smile

My opinion is that as the TV rises to above 1600, they become a more interesting challenge.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 15:57 Reply with quote Back to top

Dorf is not the worst matchup in the box. Tie is easy with 2 reserves and 1 guard. The worst matchup is woodies.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 16:12 Reply with quote Back to top

I played Amazons for five 14-game seasons in the NBFL, which is a very high TV league with a stronger mix of coaches than you find in the open divisions. It was hella hard, I only made the playoffs once, but I won a playoff game, and never came in below the middle of the pack (my high water mark was 8-3-3, low water mark 4-5-5). I've also built a couple Ranked and Box Amazon teams that have good but not great records (current ones are 10/2/2 and 4/2/0) and made an RRR final with Amazons. So I'm not Andras, but I'm no stranger to the subject, either.

My experience with high TV Amazons is this: they need star power and good support pieces. My playoff run came when I was loaded with a +AG +ST Superstar Blitzer plus a bunch of Guard Linas (and one Guard Catcher). There are only a few skills in the Amazon world: Block, Guard, Mighty Blow, Tackle, Piling On, one Sure Hands, maybe a little Frenzy and Dirty Player. Somebody somewhere is making it work with Wrestle, but I only take it on one player at a time: Amazon's strength is their ability to keep their Tackle Zones intact. Stats are huge: even a +MA pays good dividends. Doubles are very good on non-Blitzers, or as later skills on Blitzers.

Positionals aren't worth it, except Blitzers, but aren't so bad you can't make it work with them if you feel you must for some reason. Catchers have A access and Catch, which makes them slightly better than linos, but they don't quite pull their weight in skills. Throwers are inferior to +AG Linewomen, of which you will get some. Heck, even a Sure Hands Linewoman is better than a rookie Thrower, at the same TV. Blitzers are Block linas who come with automatic doubles, but you pay the extra TV for two doubles in advance (20k more than a Block lina). This means they're equal to Linewomen after 2-3 skills (depending on if you take Tackle). But they're great, so start with them. Skill them up as fast as possible, especially on a developed team. No skills, slightly bloaty. With skills, your heart and soul.

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Last edited by JackassRampant on Feb 02, 2017 - 16:16; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi moussambani!
you can read bghandras's insight about Amazon team building here:
http://fumbbl.com/p/blog&c=bghandras&id=16973
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 16:48 Reply with quote Back to top

Well since this thread is here, I'm going to ask bghandras something I meant to PM him a while back and didn't - once you said that "amazons are so misunderstood" (in a 'update the rules' thread where many replies were 'nerf zons'): what did you mean by that?


I personally don't coach Zons as I dislike the team, but that won't stop me reading this (or vomiting my opinion in it) as I'm always interested in seeing other people's opinions (particularly people who are better than me).

I do consider them a bit of a "trap team" in some ways though - it is not unheard of to initially obtain a positive record (win%) with amazons without actually playing effectively. Some might even say it's probable. Especially so if racially unfavourable matches are avoided (via whatever means, luck included). However, the team itself actually has a lot of weaknesses - obvious are the av7 and standard St3; less obvious is the blanket ma6 and the effect this can have on keeping momentum during a 8-turn drive (both on attack and defence).

The latter is a key aspect in my mind as the ability to run a smooth and controlled drive is something critical to all teams, but most others have some sort of X factor (some Ag4, ST4 or naturally higher MA players) to allow for sustained pressure or a final push. Blodge is exceptional defensively, but inexperienced amazon coaches can still become bogged down on their own offensive drives, especially so as their team gets higher in TV, or the opposite, scoring too early as an opponent abandons defence and focuses on removal.

The linos are obscenely cheap and therefore highly dispensable, the team suits well a ruthless but organised coach who has a controlled plan for every drive and is strong in its execution.
This may sound quite generic, but there are a few teams I would say are not completely unsuited to simply improvising each turn with a vague visualisation of final drive implementation, and I do not see amazons as amongst that group.

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Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 16:57 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Dorf is not the worst matchup in the box. Tie is easy with 2 reserves and 1 guard. The worst matchup is woodies.


Interesting, I see the logic. My box sample size is only around 40 games and much at high tv but my worst matchup is human followed by skaven. I'd be interested in the statistics though. I suspect that across the larger number of coaches that dwarfs might be the worst matchup although I can see how a skilled coach against less skill might fancy their chances more against them than elves.
Harad



Joined: May 11, 2014

Post   Posted: Feb 02, 2017 - 17:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Actually bghandras I'm not sure your own stats play that out. With zons in the box I think you are 5/0/1 against woodies and 1/0/1 against dwarfs. Although maybe I've missed some matches and I agree that the small sample size makes this relatively unimportant.

Although how you've only got dwarfs twice in 139 games is a travesty Smile
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