DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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 Posted:
Mar 01, 2017 - 06:58 |
 
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Yes sorry the Pact and CD minotaurs are useless.
I have always thought that a minotaur on a chaos side, in a perpetual league environemnt (TV higher the better) would be a good thing. Tentacles and Claw being the first two skills, along with standfirm and guard,there is a lot that makes them good until you get that important block. |
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D_Arquebus
Joined: Aug 02, 2003
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Mar 01, 2017 - 08:59 |
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sheepycollins
Joined: Sep 21, 2015
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Mar 01, 2017 - 10:22 |
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http://fumbbl.com/p/player?op=view&player_id=10909367
Minos are wrecking balls when used to blitz as much as possible they will wreck house... And the opposite team |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Mar 01, 2017 - 10:30 |
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| mrt1212 wrote: | | Wood Elf treeman is one skill away from making ottds even easier. I wouldnt leave home without one. |
You mean Right Stuff on the catcher? |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Mar 01, 2017 - 10:36 |
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All BGs are worth it somewhere in the wide world of Blood Bowl. I don't think too many competitive teams in the standard FUMBBL environments would feature a Mino, but they're not useless everywhere.
When the new, lower attrition meta arrives, I wonder if BGs will become 'more useful'? Dunno. |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Mar 01, 2017 - 10:53 |
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In general, a Wild Animal (minos, rat ogres, snow troll) rarely improves your team. They are hard to manage, unpredictable and fragile, so they can't perform the Big Guy role of being there and drawing attention and punches. They are actually designed to be blitzing around, but then they'll waste on average a couple of blitzes per game.
They may be somewhat useful in lower TV but their value diminishes as the team improves and dedicated, reliable blitzers are available.
Other negatraits are more manageable. While the fail penalty is higher, they are not action conditioned and thus they will rarely be doing (read wasting/failing) crucial actions forced by the negatrait. |
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DrDiscoStu
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
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Mar 01, 2017 - 13:40 |
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Yeah but being able to take tentacles as your first skill on a chaos Minotaur makes WA a lot more manageable. You could also take the tail too - a very underrated skill. I know no one uses Minos but I would probably take it as the fourth non double (tents, claw, SF) add a tail to that and no one is dodging away. |
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Miceycraft
Joined: Nov 10, 2015
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Mar 01, 2017 - 13:46 |
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No big guy is useless. They all do their own things. I would say the best is the Halfling Treemen and the worst is the Chaos Minotaur. The chaos mino just takes away your blitzers from your other players I find. |
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Verminardo
Joined: Sep 27, 2006
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Mar 01, 2017 - 15:20 |
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In the NAF format Big Guys are often better because they can get a double skill and also, their Mighty Blow comes in handy. That said, I've seen a Rat Ogre singlehandedly lose an NAF style game...
I'm always on the fence about the Wood Elf Tree. At least 2 out of three games I feel I would be better off with a Rookie Lineman and a Card/Babe. But then there are games where he is just awesome. I think he is more useful against inexperienced coaches who don't know how to handle him well. Also, I keep hoping that one day I, too, shall roll +MA or at least a double on one of my Trees. So far, they've all been very ordinary.  |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Mar 01, 2017 - 15:57 |
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| Verminardo wrote: | | I think he is more useful against inexperienced coaches who don't know how to handle him well. |
Truth.
And the opposite, BGs are more useful for experienced coaches who know how to handle them.
I think the RO is the best example of this frankly. Inexperienced skaven coaches who use one seem to get almost nothing out of them because they don't anticipate properly the correct times to use the blitz or even the skill stack to build up.
I've seen a lot of WE treemen over at BB2 lately, and when I face them, they do almost nothing because I know how to avoid them and just wait out them taking root.
Yet when I watch certain WE streamers, I see their opponents throwing half their team at the Tree in a pointless attempt to knock it down and leaving far too much space for the other elfs to set up their offense or defense.
Of course on my Treeman team the stupid thing will knock itself over on a 3db of both downs and skulls and then proceed to roll nothing but 2s and 3s on the stand up for the rest of the half.
Even when he is up and stays up his major accomplishment is usually to just keep one line man marked while failing to break armor on all blocks. I do appreciate that he sucks up the 1s taking root instead of letting me roll them for dodges though |
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Matthueycamo
Joined: May 16, 2014
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Mar 01, 2017 - 16:10 |
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All of them! Bring on the big guy Fun! |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Mar 01, 2017 - 18:14 |
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| zakatan wrote: | | mrt1212 wrote: | | Wood Elf treeman is one skill away from making ottds even easier. I wouldnt leave home without one. |
You mean Right Stuff on the catcher? |
It's all about that 3d6 grab block. |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Mar 01, 2017 - 20:58 |
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All Big guys are worth it IF you do not care about TV for match making. If you care about TV for match making above all else then no big guys is worth it.
A human Ogre is 140TV, you can get 3 X linemen for 150TV. In theory the 3 linemen will have a bigger impact on the match instead of the ogre.
The same logic applies to size of roster. Do I go with 16 or 12? 12 man roster is TV trimmed and primed, 16 you have some TV bloat. All depends on how matches are arranged. Once the actual match starts, well, then you want a 16 man roster and a big guy BUT some coaches are afraid of high TV in certain matches. Thus, no Big Guy and 12 man roster.
Playing with No Big Guy and a 12 man roster is a attempt to give you an edge on match making.
Playing with a big guy and a 16 man roster is a attempt to give you an edge once the football is kicked off.
Is there some kind of balance between the two, yeah, I quess. |
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Last edited by PainState on %b %01, %2017 - %21:%Mar; edited 1 time in total |
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PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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Mar 01, 2017 - 21:07 |
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Are big guys really inferior?
Lets just look at blocking.
Lets take a human team. You have a Ogre and a Blitzer. The Blitzer hasMB/PO and so does the Ogre.
Lets say each of them throws 60 blocks.
The blitzer is superior because he will throw 60 blocks and not have to make a bone head roll BUT all his 60 blocks are a 2 die block.
The ogre on the other hand throws 60 blocks and boneheads on 10 and thus he only throws 50 blocks. Lets say you are a very conservative coach and only throw a big guy block on a 3 Die Block.
After 60 blocks the Ogre will be far better at blocking and inflicting pain compared to the blitzer. 50 Blocks at 3 die will always produce more KO/CAS than 60 w/ 2 die blocks. |
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DrDeath
Joined: Mar 27, 2011
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Mar 01, 2017 - 22:57 |
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In evaluating big guys you really have to consider what they could become with a few skills. I'm amazed at the responses regarding the snow troll - yes he is a bit of a liability to start with, but with only one double you can end up with a Str5, Frenzy, Block, CPOMBer. That is for me the best big guy out there, and raises Norse to a whole new level against high TV bash. As an example PeteW had one in the top division of WIL a couple of years ago - he won the league twice in a row I think, then the big guy got killed and the team was relegated! Not a coincidence.
I agree rat ogres are usually bloody awful but with a lot more luck you can develop a similar player. Only trouble is the other rats can't really back him up against heavy bash, so if you're not careful he is liable to get exposed and killed. But I find unskilled rat ogres so bad I've never had the patience and luck to develop one! They are usable in many NAF Tournaments however where you can use a double to give them Block. Still often go for 3 linerats instead though! |
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