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Zlefin



Joined: Apr 14, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 22:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Whenever I get 10's on the skillup, I mostly take either the +MA or sometimes just a skill (or the doubles if it's 5/5). I rarely take +AV; sometimes I do for fun, but it doesn't seem like it's a sound plan from a TV management standpoint.
Is it ever worthwhile to take +AV in an environment like box/ranked? what about in a fixed length league, would +AV potentially be worthwhile there for some teams/positions?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 22:03 Reply with quote Back to top

It depends. If you play in a fixed length league and your opponents have no Claw players then taking +AV might be worthwhile.

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Espionage



Joined: Jun 08, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 22:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I don't take it either. I have wondered about Slann blitzers where they often hit the ground from a failed leap, and with Jump up as long as they aren't stunned they are mobile next turn.

Maybe as a skill on Norse Linemen that haven't rolled doubles? And if I was in a league with no Claw access team, it might become more attractive.
Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 22:10 Reply with quote Back to top

I like having one or two +AG wood elf linemen to stand besides the tree on the LoS, saves quite some casualties on the long run and allows to keep a full roster. But it is probably not that attractive from TV management point of view...
Loew



Joined: Feb 02, 2005

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 22:15 Reply with quote Back to top

i think it was worth it on some piling on player, when their biggest danger was being fouled after the pile on.

maybe worth it on player that happen to be in contact often and don't profit much from other options...like a guard line player, especially some kind of elf.

But sure, claw is a factor, if there is a high chance of it in your environment, +AV is not very TV efficient
PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 22:21 Reply with quote Back to top

Medon wrote:
But it is probably not that attractive from TV management point of view...


Wait, what?

So taking +MA for 30TV is fine from a TV management stand point but +AV is not?

+AV on players who start with a 9AV is always a primo skill up, IMO. You get the best odds in the game when it comes to breaking your armor.

8 AV players a +AV is nice BUT is heavily dependent on thir role. Linemen need +AV not +MA. Catchers and such need +MA. Linemen who only play the LOS need +AV regardless of AV 9 , 8 ,7.

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fidius



Joined: Jun 17, 2011

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:07 Reply with quote Back to top

This is such a hard one to call. +MA is an active ability; +AV is passive. You notice +MA because you use it every turn; you don't notice +AV until you get knocked down, and even then it doesn't kick in unless a certain number is rolled on armour. So psychologically, +MA will always seem better.

On the other hand, teams with blanket AV9 (Orcs, Dwarves) are feared because you can't get them off the pitch. There is a contradiction in there somewhere.

Like PainState said, I think you take +AV on players you expect to hit the turf a lot. Use them in the thick of the action or it's a waste of TV.

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thoralf



Joined: Mar 06, 2008

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Good Sir,

I present you Benjamin "Black Necked Swan" Pickles.

That is all.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:27 Reply with quote Back to top

fidius wrote:
You notice +MA because you use it every turn


That is what Iam talking about.

Some players on your team will very rarely actually use their +MA.

You give +MA on your lino. Lets say he is a 6 ma player. How many times in the match does he actually move 7?

You give +MA on your MA 8 catcher...how many times does he move 9?


Blitzers are the tough call, IMO. They want +ma to give them more range on a blitz but on the other hand they are targeted, usually, above all your other players so +AV is a nice thing to have.

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PainState



Joined: Apr 04, 2007

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Use an extreme example to make the point.

Lets say you have a orc/dwarf team. EVERY player you have has taken +AV on. SO the entire team is AV10.

Is that more desirable than having a Orc/Dwarf team who every player takes +MA.

Sure, it is totally situational in each individual match BUT in the long run having 10 AV across the board is more desirable for a Orc/Dwarf team than having +MA across the board. In the end the better long term plan for Orc/Dwarf teams is to take the +AV every day. The only exception, situation, would be the Runners. Then again the weak point of a dwarf team in terms of AV are the Runners and the Slayers. Having 9-10 AV runners and slayers is a bad thing? Same goes with the AV8 Orc throwers.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:43 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
Use an extreme example to make the point.

Lets say you have a orc/dwarf team. EVERY player you have has taken +AV on. SO the entire team is AV10.

Is that more desirable than having a Orc/Dwarf team who every player takes +MA.

Sure, it is totally situational in each individual match BUT in the long run having 10 AV across the board is more desirable for a Orc/Dwarf team than having +MA across the board. In the end the better long term plan for Orc/Dwarf teams is to take the +AV every day. The only exception, situation, would be the Runners. Then again the weak point of a dwarf team in terms of AV are the Runners and the Slayers. Having 9-10 AV runners and slayers is a bad thing? Same goes with the AV8 Orc throwers.


I don't know, I quite like the idea of having +MA across all orcs than I do having +AV since I'm probably going to avoid a few more AV rolls if I can position out of them.
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:46 Reply with quote Back to top

I take +av on some players in leagues where claw doesn't exist or isn't on my division. So far i only remember taking armor once on human blitzer in all-human-(sub-)league (where we develop players for main leagues draft pool and i chose +av to add variation).

I might take +av on wild animal big guys too (Yhetee or if i ever choose to take chaos mino.. so far i have tried to play without one).

And i only remember only once agreeing once about taking armor on one lineman in open matchmaking ever and it was about 5th skill for norse lino. The guy was kinda good (some doubles.. was it blodge guard or something like that).. already had fend and tackle so there weren't many good normal skill options left.. and the guy wanted to keep him and make him survive. Yeah, claw is a problem and he will be targeted by it.. but i think the av8 went in use right there on that norse lino.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:46 Reply with quote Back to top

PainState wrote:
fidius wrote:
You notice +MA because you use it every turn


That is what Iam talking about.

Some players on your team will very rarely actually use their +MA.

You give +MA on your lino. Lets say he is a 6 ma player. How many times in the match does he actually move 7?

You give +MA on your MA 8 catcher...how many times does he move 9?


Blitzers are the tough call, IMO. They want +ma to give them more range on a blitz but on the other hand they are targeted, usually, above all your other players so +AV is a nice thing to have.


For every lino not on the line on defense? Every time. More possibilities. For MA8 Catchers? Every time. Same premise.

I'm on one end of the spectrum though where I use every ounce of MA and then some.

In fact, if you aren't taking +MA with elves, why are you even playing them?


Last edited by mrt1212 on Apr 20, 2017 - 23:47; edited 1 time in total
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:47 Reply with quote Back to top

No.

/thread
Naama



Joined: Jun 12, 2004

Post   Posted: Apr 20, 2017 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

In my opinion don't take +AV, it doesn't bring anything concrete to your team, as would a basic or specialized skill (or even +ma). Claw has already been mentioned, and i don't think the slightly lowered chance of armour break in normal circumstances is worth taking over extra mobility or a game impacting skill.

Also... I don't think anyone has ever won anything just by turtling up Very Happy
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