PainState
Joined: Apr 04, 2007
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 Posted:
Apr 21, 2017 - 16:01 |
 
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| Kondor wrote: | | Also, by increasing the AV you are increasing the expense of the player without making them any more effective on the field. |
So, a player who was de pitched because he has block (insert skill of choice) is more valuable than a player still on the pitch performing actions?
I look at like this.
This stupid game is a massive dice fest, which means it is ruled by the laws of compounding averages. Regardless of your AV at some point after X number of hits his armor will crack. Then you are subjected to more dice rolling on what happens to him.
So, you have a choice.
#1 you just throw up your arms, admit that regardless of AV your player will get killed or maimed. It could happen in game #1 or game #68. So, you ignore averages and probability and just accept the dice fate.
#2 You do every thing in your power to leverage the dice. You attempt to increase the odds in your favor in every respect. That is why you take skills like block, dodge, catch, pass, sure feet...etc. They increase the odds in your favor for all those actions.
+AV does that also but since it is passive, well, you ignore it. +MA it seems in a lot of minds has more value, not because it changes any odds but because it has value, possibly, in a game to change up situations and scenarios to give you a tactical advantage.
Take a skaven Gutter Runner..You take the +MA because of the tactical advantage that you will get by making a OTS player. The +AV on him, makes him in theory last longer but you are trading away one of the most powerful tactical advantages in the game by not taking the +MA.
That is what it comes down to.
+MA gives you the possibility to create tactical advantages on the pitch.
+AV increases the odds your player will stay on the pitch longer AND stay on the team longer, which increases his value because he might get to 3+ skills. |
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Nextflux
Joined: Jan 22, 2008
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| Posted:
Apr 21, 2017 - 16:31 |
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+AV also becomes stronger the stronger the player is. It makes sense to choose +AV especially after 3-4 skills. Also I think Av is useful to compensate for an obvious weakness in the team, if squishy consider taking AV unless your team tactic is just to run away all the time, then maybe you don't need it that much. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 21, 2017 - 16:33 |
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| PainState wrote: |
This stupid game is a massive dice fest, which means it is ruled by the laws of compounding averages. Regardless of your AV at some point after X number of hits his armor will crack. Then you are subjected to more dice rolling on what happens to him.
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Either the player is important in which case you shouldn't be letting them get hit 'that much'.
Or the player isn't important, in which case you shouldn't really care.
Clearly though the +AV doesn't apply much to the hard bash teams, they, having G/S access ALWAYS have a better skill to take than AV, and some of them become much much better with +MA (or dodge on the doubles).
So you're really talking about AV7 teams, or the hybrid AV8 teams.
If you play AV7 teams you should understand the ways in which those teams function, and having some extra AV doesn't help them whatsoever, more MA on positionals, hell yes. Blodge/SS asap on guys, hell yes! Dirty player on crap linemen! HELL TO THE @#$# YEAH!
So what's left are your nominally garbage AV8 teams that DONT have regen. Humans then I guess.
Humans suck anyway, so I suppose them taking +AV doesn't make them really suck any more, because them taking other stuff doesn't make them suck any less.
Basically you could just go back to page 1 though and find the
and then not continue with this pointlessness. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Apr 21, 2017 - 16:52 |
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zakatan
Joined: May 17, 2008
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Apr 21, 2017 - 17:11 |
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Read the first page. Got here. Why are there 3 more pages? |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Apr 21, 2017 - 17:11 |
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I would consider AV on wolves and witches too. Human blitzers have S access, BTW. Also, bghandras has 9av linos in DLE and some small Pacters once had 9av linos too, despite S access.
Dogmas should be left to the Book of Dakka, or better yet on BB2 forums. |
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There is always Sneaky Git. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 21, 2017 - 17:19 |
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On a werewolf +MA is a no brainer, makes 1TTD way easier. |
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Purplegoo
Joined: Mar 23, 2006
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Apr 21, 2017 - 17:20 |
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Does quoting your own posts make them any better? No thread will ever end if that's the new rule. Slater / Rampant alone will develop RSI pretty quickly.
With all due respect to the coaches involved, those are not 'correct' skill choices as an accepted generalism. If there is a hyper specific situation where +AV was 'right' at the time, then great, and I remain open to the possibility of such a parallel universe existing. I'm just yet to meet or imagine it.
BB generalisms are not always black and white right or wrong, and the game supports multiple theories. +AV being optimal anywhere is pushing your luck, mind. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Apr 21, 2017 - 17:43 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | On a werewolf +MA is a no brainer, makes 1TTD way easier. |
How much easier? I can't recall a one-turn by a necro team. I can't recall a necro game where a wolf hasn't been vulnerable.
MA and Frenzeh go hand in hand, at least as far as slayers are concerned. Far is always near for Dorfs anyway. Taking AV could still make sense, say if you like your slayers to have Stand Firm.
In any case, these discussions always get more interesting if specific cases are brought up. Skill choices depend on builds, on playstyles, on gaming preferences. Asking if AV is worth it could be seen as a way to provide reasons in favor and description of situations where it matters. It could also be seen as another opportunity to play Grumpy, using a passive voice or not, mind. |
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Last edited by thoralf on %b %21, %2017 - %17:%Apr; edited 1 time in total |
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Semitence
Joined: May 18, 2013
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Apr 21, 2017 - 17:48 |
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| licker wrote: | Basically you could just go back to page 1 though and find the
and then not continue with this pointlessness. |
If it was end thread why are you still posting then? |
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Tonag
Joined: Apr 14, 2014
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Apr 21, 2017 - 17:49 |
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| Naama wrote: | In my opinion don't take +AV, it doesn't bring anything concrete to your team, as would a basic or specialized skill (or even +ma). Claw has already been mentioned, and i don't think the slightly lowered chance of armour break in normal circumstances is worth taking over extra mobility or a game impacting skill.
Also... I don't think anyone has ever won anything just by turtling up  |
Dorfs only win by turtling up, but I see your point. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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Apr 21, 2017 - 18:00 |
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| thoralf wrote: |
How much easier? I can't recall a one-turn by a necro team. I can't recall a necro game where a wolf hasn't been vulnerable. |
With MA 8 you need to push the Werewolf 3 squares + 2 GFIs, with MA 9 3 squares + 1 GFI.
Due to the avoided GFI at least 13.89% easier, assuming no rr available.
Having only MA 8 and failing to push the Werewolf 3 squares might make the 1TTD impossible at all, though, while the MA 9 Werewolf could still score with 2 GFIs.
About Werewolf being vulnerable: with MA 9 you can blitz and run back to safety behind a screen of tackle zones, so MA can be considered a sort of protection, you can stay out of range, blitz, and go back all time.
On top of that, when the Werewolf faces Claw all his +AV is useless, +MA is never useless. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 21, 2017 - 18:21 |
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| Purplegoo wrote: | | If there is a hyper specific situation where +AV was 'right' at the time, then great, and I remain open to the possibility of such a parallel universe existing. I'm just yet to meet or imagine it. |
Maybe there's a badge for making a goblin AV9?
At least one can imagine that  |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Apr 21, 2017 - 18:23 |
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| Semitence wrote: | | licker wrote: | Basically you could just go back to page 1 though and find the
and then not continue with this pointlessness. |
If it was end thread why are you still posting then? |
Because I do not have the power to actually end the thread.
People are free to wallow in their delusions though. |
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Jeffthejar
Joined: Aug 31, 2011
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Apr 21, 2017 - 18:29 |
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+2 AV snotling would be worthy of a badge, too! Imagine all the snotling fans cheering on such a amazing player!  |
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