Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
|
 Posted:
May 26, 2017 - 16:06 |
 
|
I came back a few days ago and discovered the changes implemented.
As you may (or may not know), I mainly play with bash teams (Flings, Pygmies, Orcs and Norses - in that order  ) and considered the old ruleset was mostly fine (the only change I would have made would have been to slightly nerf cPOMB - not PO - that's pretty much it.
Now, 2 of the few changes have a direct impact on the Stunty teams:
Expensive mistakes:
My Flings have had 764 players in 691 games, which means I have to replace on average one player per game, for various reasons:
- A player was killed or maimed.
- I had players MNG, and it's cheaper to buy a new Fling (even if you fire him when your guys a back) than a mercenary.
- A Fling has rolled a normal skill (take Catch and fire him, most of the time) - only SS/DT can be useful if we stick to normal-rollers, but whether you want a couple of them or not if mostly a matter of TV bloat.
- One of my Treemen was recently killed and his replacement got a regular skill after his first roll. I know that's a bit extreme (most Fling coaches wait till 31 SPP), but the reasoning is really simple: Treemen need doubles to be useful, and the sooner you roll one, the more likely you are to roll another one (or more). That's the very reason why the Sammiches have had so many freaks among their trees (I believe all those who made it to Legend had at least 2 doubles or one double and a +stat).
Now, before the new ruleset, I had the treasury to do that. Typically, that was something like: I have 2 legendary Trees, I know they're gonna live for 200 or 300 games, the money goes up to 500+k ; one of the Tree dies, my treasury starts melting, and we start over.
But with the new rulset... Well, I came back, readied my team, lost 400+k and was left with under 100k (yeah, that was my 10 sec of whining ), and got quickly in a position where I didn't have money to replace my injured Flings (I'm comfortable with 14 players, but couldn't even afford that at some point). I'm not talking about replacing normal rollers, not to mention a Tree.
How do you, fellow Stunty coaches, deal with that? I know the new MVP rules may help (you have fewer random skill-ups - which also sucks in a way since every now and then, that random skilled-up dude becomes you new future legend) so that's fewer Flings with Catch to replace, but in the meantime it also means your Tress are gonna get their first skill much faster, and therefore replacing sucky Trees will be even more expensive.
That's an honest team management question - I haven't played enough to see how it goes.
Now, the second point (it'll be much shorter):
The removal of Piling On:
I have always been against giving PO to a Fling Tree (baring exceptional skill rolls before that), but I know other Fling coaches (rightfully so, in a way) disagree, and in any case, it used to be a solid choice for MA3+ Big Guys (Gobo Trolls, Ogres, Pygmy Krox, etc).
But let's stick to Flings. There were basically 2 ways of building his team (and by that I mean the Trees; Flings are more obvious, they take whatever good stat / skill they roll: AG/ST/MA Block/MB/Tackle/DP/whatever):
- The versatile / bash-oriented build (the Sammiches to sum it up): you try to be ready to face most rosters. Therefore, your Trees must be both killers (well ST6, MB, and Block is a good start ), but they also have to be road blocks against bash teams when you're losing the Cas war (so Guard and Dodge really help - just try and mark as many opponents as you can, while your Flings run away with the ball). It works well against bash teams, but it still pretty weak against Elves who can easilly dodge away and do their Elf things.
- The anti-agile teams build (Left My Heart in San Francisco): turn your trees into pure killers. That means PO (preferably with MA or JU, even before Block), and nuke those pointy ears till there's none left on the pitch.
Now the question is simple (and I'm mainly addressing to those who chose the second option): how do deal with Elves after the removal of PO? DP are obviously still a thing, but heck, I can already picture a huge drop in the win/loss ratio of some teams. Or maybe I'm just too pessimistic.
I've mainly played fun and easy games against other Stunty teams since I came back, but I'm really sceptical about the new rules... |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
 |
|
tussock
Joined: May 29, 2011
|
| Posted:
May 26, 2017 - 17:14 |
|
Dealing with elves: draw them to the ball among guard trees, have enough TZs spread around they can't pick it up, 3d pinball them with grab until they go down, wrestle flings can help, then put the boot in, because it's their best player just went for the ball in the middle of your trap.
Take your time, have a DP if possible, and break armour on the fouls. It has better player removal odds than CPOMB, you just need to knock them over.
If they crowd your flings, pass them to the trees and get busy with the multiple blocks, the Mighty Blow will take a steady toll on numbers, every stun helps. Ideally do all this close enough to the sideline that they can't stand between you and it without facing a surf threat from a grab tree, gives you a place to hide a turn if things go bad.
But fouling is key, and a long bench is essential to cover the sendoffs that result.
On defence, you need to run down their receivers one at a time, I love wrestle flings for the job, and you'll often have 3 assists for the following foul from the 2d blitz. Chase the thrower down with a DT guy just to hurry them along, the trees can hang out in the middle to complicate the pass/handoff plays, force more dodges, and add flings to wherever the ball is. Once they get sick of you fouling their nice catchers and score, you go back to setting a trap for them to leap into.
Ideally I'd have Block&Tackle trees, with grab/multi/guard, that'll hurt elves all day, and they'll never knock it over so you don't need JU or +ma in the first place. BT helps the surf threat of course.
Maximise tree blocks, including multiple block to make them not want to crowd your flings too hard. Constantly gang foul, it adds up, especially on AV 7. Stall out everything, hard, do not let them get extra KO rolls if at all possible. Play teams with a short or no bench, loners are great because they don't get to make early-turn dodges or 2d hits on flings.
--
For TV management, I don't bother, bigger is more fun, and you can just buy your own chefs whenever you like now if you're not constantly sacking flings. Skill the trees to superstar and then skill flings until they die. Biggest I've ever gotten a team was about 1850, and the elfs you play up there are good fun and soon trim your TV back for you by killing your ball carriers, while there's also lots of expensive players who don't like getting gang fouled and it gives you good shots at the win. Without spiralling expenses money is plentiful.
Note that you can maintain a 14-strong side by running 16 flings and having 2 MNG on average. Whenever you pop up to 16 for a game, that's when you look into sacking one. |
_________________
  |
|
Zed
Joined: Jun 04, 2004
|
| Posted:
May 26, 2017 - 19:05 |
|
Foul more, get lucky !
Also wait that there's the cash grab death zone serie all released that they start thinking about balance in the very last issue. |
_________________
"Be somebody or be the fool of somebody" Mr T |
|
Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
|
| Posted:
May 26, 2017 - 19:10 |
|
@ tussock : I don't wanna sound rude - that's not my point AT ALL, and I have the deepest respect for Fling coaches who play in the box. Really - and allow me to insist on that so hopefully you won't get offended by what I'm about to say...
Your record versus elves is even worse than mine (which is logical, since I'm mainly a R picker). I definitely appreciate your answer, but yeah, to sum it up, there's DP left, but PO Trees are gone, which means "stunty nerf" (at least for the pointy ears cutters teams). |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
|
|
Lyracian
Joined: Oct 29, 2015
|
| Posted:
May 29, 2017 - 03:35 |
|
On sacking trees until they roll a Double you could wait until 16 SPP now it is a lot easier to skill them up? Also if we get the new re-draft rules from DZ1 then you can replace none-block trees at the start of each season without having to spend Treasury gold on them.
Money management is a much more important aspect of the new rules than the old. Sure hiring new Flings is cheaper than hiring a Merc but it costs you actual cash whereas the Merc can be hiring with Inducement gold. |
_________________
Nuffle wills it.
Lyracian. |
|
fidius
Joined: Jun 17, 2011
|
| Posted:
May 29, 2017 - 09:17 |
|
Either the new BBRC doesn't understand the game as well as they should, or they are under such restrictions from GW as to make proper improvements impossible.
In an ideal world, every team would face gold-spending dilemmas constantly. Whether on players, staff, promotions, stadium upgrades, Stars, bribes, or team training, there should always be some tension between what you'd like to buy and the resources available. The reality in CRP was that this tension existed in an extreme game-effecting sense for some teams and was non-existent for most others. Teams with AV9 or Regen were cash-rich, and AV7 teams often had perma-Journeymen.
The reasons for this as I see it:
1) AV9/Regen teams suffer substantially less attrition and/or get free players
2) Winnings are indiscriminate between teams and are high-variance (d6)
3) Few things to spend money on worth the TV
Gold was in fact an issue for only a handful of teams in CRP. Rich teams wouldn't spend it because of the Petty Cash matching mechanism, and it put an artificial but useful cap on overpowered AG4/AV7 teams. Its main downsides were how difficult it made recovery from catastrophic losses, especially early in a team's life/season, and how it made 6337 teams difficult to sustain at high TV.
Balancing gold flows is a tricky problem. Essentially, to maintain that tension, you have to balance income (winnings) with spending (on players, team goods). You can tweak the three levers listed above to your heart's content but ultimately it is impossible to fully balance, mainly because attrition rates are different and variable.
So what is the solution? I think it is to balance as much as possible with all three levers, and then impose an outright cap to counter "leakage" at either end (too much income or too much cost). The problem with BB2016, to me, is that they went straight to the cap (Expensive Mistakes + Seasons) rather than tweaking the levers enough. And with it they codified an arbitrary TV at which Blood Bowl should be played long-term, and ushered in a host of other problems (ie inducement spending), without really advancing the goal of resource-management tension. Rich teams still won't care about money (but will be able to spend it on luxury items now), and poor teams will still be starved for players.
Relative attrition rates are improved with CPOMB teams, but worse for other teams (Norse, Ogres, Humans, Stunty). Wants to Retire is supposed to be the great balancer (ala Ageing) but is far too weak a mechanism to make a difference imo. Until attrition rates are refined through a combination of proper ageing and a player/skill re-vamp, winnings made discriminatory between races, and more ways of spending gold for real benefits are introduced, the cash problem will always be with us.
tl;dr Cash mostly didn't matter under CRP, but now it causes problems. |
|
|
Kondor
Joined: Apr 04, 2008
|
| Posted:
May 29, 2017 - 11:10 |
|
With stunties, I am still an R picker and that is the key for me. Game play has not changed, butt i am slower to fire players. If you have a bloated tree you want to get rid of you will need to keep a couple of injured or skilled flings for a game or two. On the bright side, I have found that incentives have been good for me because I can sometimes throw in 10k and get a bribe I would not have had before.
My experience has been with goblins but it should be similar for flings. I like the new rules. |
|
|
Kam
Joined: Nov 06, 2012
|
| Posted:
May 29, 2017 - 17:38 |
|
@ Lyracian: yup, they level up faster, which is probably a good thing - not so much if you keep in mind the BoB or TG you'll be facing do too.  But really, firing them after their first skill wasn't about how long it takes them to earn SPP: it was just a matter of probability. Your chance of rolling another double is higher if you have 5 more rolls instead of 4.
Now, I must say not being able to replace normal-roller Trees is not what worries me the most. Having Stunties pay the high price for what fidius explained is, however. Overall, I think in a perpetual league format such as R or B, you should be allowed to save enough money (if you can) to replace your most expensive positional plus some petty cash for the Casualties you generally suffer every game. So if we're talking about Flings: 120k to replace a Tree, and let's 90k for 3 Flings. Or one Troll, one SW and a couple of Gobos for the greenskins. It's not the case with the new rules.
But it's just my point of view... |
_________________
GLN 17 is out!
|
|
ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
|
| Posted:
May 29, 2017 - 18:23 |
|
Don't want to start an R/B thing here, since it's not my intention; but it should really go without saying that when we are discussing a mechanism of the ruleset "I'm an R Picker" isn't actually addressing anything, even if it is your personal solution to an issue.
Lyracian raises a point about seasons, but actually from what feedback elsewhere I've seen from TT leagues with stunties, they're still getting just as badly wrecked even with seasons implemented. This makes sense, since to be quite frank, being able to recycle your trees/trolls/stunties for free every season isn't really much of a pay-off when your opponents are retaining mb/tackle and guard, and are probably starting each season with more block and dodge too.
It does allow you to play an inducements game indefinitely, since you can simply just start low tv with cash and always spend it, knowing you can re-draft end of season. But (a) you could always do that in a league anyway with careful planning, and (b) that's meaningless to TV based-MM.
On the subject of losing players and being unable to replace them. He probably won't post here since he's not a forums guy, but Dirold lost both his trolls shortly after EM was implemented in B, and it took him ten games to get them both back. Ten games where he basically was just showing up, with loner gobs etc, waiting on winnings. He's recovered from that, so it is possible, but it sure as hell doesn't look fun. |
_________________
 |
|
|
|
| |
[L] OBBA Smack Talk ...
Search
