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Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 02:17 Reply with quote Back to top

If it was up to the page, TV would be more nuanced based on the actual value of some skills. The most commonly chosen ones are incredibly strong and easily worth more than 20k. Some weaker ones not so much.

Ultimately we play a tabletop game here online. We didn't make the rules for it and due to the nature of offline gaming it requires a certain simplicity to handle. Could it be handled better? Yes.

Could we handle it better? Not without diverging further from the core rules.

Why is that?
Couldn't we just stick to the rules but base matchmaking on something else?

Yes but TV would be still extremely relevant. Because along with TV come inducements. If you have an unbalanced game, the underdog gets a compensation in TV. This compensation is not marginal.
It is strong because it gives you options to react specifically to your opponent. The more experienced the coach the more he/she will profit.


So what should I do?

Try to understand the effects of the rules on a certain environment and accept that it is part of the game.
You may choose the environment you like. It could be League, it could be Ranked or it could be Blackbox.
But in any case the environment is gonna have a huge impact on your chances to win the next game, the next 10 games and the next 100 games.

So rather than try to fit the rules to your needs, fit your needs to the rules.

For your team that means:
If as you assess players are expensive and skills are cheap, then you know what you should save TV in and what you can afford to invest a lot in.
Don't bloat your team.
And don't be surprised or upset if you lose anyways because you are undermanned.
Ultimately it is just your opinion that skills are worth more than what they are worth and players are worth less Wink.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 03:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. The main issue isn't TV in itself. The main issue is the relative number of skills that certain teams have aquired over the many,many games they have played before .
To give a blunt example a rookie human blitzer gives 90k of TV - equal to 4 skills on another player.
So two teams will have roughly the same TV - while one has an extra rookie player and the other has 4 skills on one of their players.

So people seldomly take more then 11-12 players, and have 2-3 players with 5-6 skills.

The simple fix for it is to have skills increase TV more then extra players. That would be fair.
The way this is done now,IMHO ,always gives an advantage to the teams that have "recycled" more lineman and have a few stars.

Think about the following example:

Team A has played 5 games , 3 players have a skill each . The team started with higher FF to earn more cash .And they did. Now they have 14 players.
Lets say ther TV is 1500.

Team B started wiht FF 1 and has dropped lineman after lineman, and has 4 players that have 3-4 skills each - and the rest are ok, or vandering lineman (irrelevant). Team B has 11 players total.

Team B is at a HUGE advantage. They can field their entire TV in a single drive. Team A can only field a portion.

Skills grown through play should increase TV more then extra players.

Second solution would be to calculate TV based on the starting 11 players .

The logic behind this is to stimulate people not to drop players just to have lower TV. It makes perfect sense that, if you can score/defend against the best 11 opposing players, you can also score/defend against the reserves.


Not to crap on this post but before you go reinventing the wheel, play an assload of games.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 03:08 Reply with quote Back to top

New people here sometimes get picked a lot.

That's where someone wants to play you because they think you can't win, and you're imagining people ticking you because they think it's a good match. When the tick comes up, sometimes it's a fair match, sometimes you're getting picked, sometimes you're even getting a gift game from someone that's after a specific challenge.

If you want fairer matches, you've got to check that's what's being offered, which will take some time to learn by experience.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 03:09 Reply with quote Back to top

He probably has in the past mrt. What he's talking about with FF and mass linos is building your team lrb4 style.

He's not adapted to CRP mechanics (which have brought forth into BB2016) and doesn't realise FF is now a tax on success and having a bench/large rerolls is a choice you make, not something everyone does.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 03:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Still applies. Instead of finding solutions to problems that will never be implemented, maybe should see if he can adapt to problems he faces and find fun in it. Wink
Krunkova



Joined: Jun 11, 2007

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 07:38 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
He probably has in the past mrt. What he's talking about with FF and mass linos is building your team lrb4 style.

He's not adapted to CRP mechanics (which have brought forth into BB2016) and doesn't realise FF is now a tax on success and having a bench/large rerolls is a choice you make, not something everyone does.


Thanks- this is probably what I was looking for.

Yes ,I have played an ass load of games, thank you.

Where can I find some guide on CRP mechanics? It did seem logical tha having more re-rolls (so u buy them while they are cheap) and a higher FF(that would bring more cash ) is something everyone does.

Since as it stands, it seems it's the other way around. The key to success is just play a shitload of games and have your key 4-5 players survive. Everything else is irrelevant.

That would mean I need to invest 1-2 hours into every game, and -i do (just like everyone else to be fair), and play at least 25 games to have a chance. All that in order to cycle enough lineman to reach a point where 25 MVP awards are distributed between 3-4 players.

This translates into 50-100 playing hours just to trim the TV enough. Wow.

I have a feeling this isn't what I was looking for.

It's too much work just to have a fair chance.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 08:06 Reply with quote Back to top

You should talk to morehouse about coping with the different ruleset. He took to it like a fish to water.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 08:09 Reply with quote Back to top

No, i dont agree to that extreme. Just dont spend your gold every time you can. If you have 3 rerolls, and 1 sub, then you are covered in most cases. The rest is TV that you may not use. So simple.

It is the same as shopping in the supermarket. If you dont need 5 kg of meat, dont buy it, even if it is your favorite, fresh, and half the price.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 08:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:
ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
He probably has in the past mrt. What he's talking about with FF and mass linos is building your team lrb4 style.

He's not adapted to CRP mechanics (which have brought forth into BB2016) and doesn't realise FF is now a tax on success and having a bench/large rerolls is a choice you make, not something everyone does.


Thanks- this is probably what I was looking for.

Yes ,I have played an ass load of games, thank you.

Where can I find some guide on CRP mechanics? It did seem logical tha having more re-rolls (so u buy them while they are cheap) and a higher FF(that would bring more cash ) is something everyone does.

Since as it stands, it seems it's the other way around. The key to success is just play a shitload of games and have your key 4-5 players survive. Everything else is irrelevant.

That would mean I need to invest 1-2 hours into every game, and -i do (just like everyone else to be fair), and play at least 25 games to have a chance. All that in order to cycle enough lineman to reach a point where 25 MVP awards are distributed between 3-4 players.

This translates into 50-100 playing hours just to trim the TV enough. Wow.

I have a feeling this isn't what I was looking for.

It's too much work just to have a fair chance.



Not at all mate, let me explain:

People don't start with FF now for the most part, because you don't need gold so heavily.

They do still start with average 3rr. (2 for some).

Games in the Ranked division are matched by tv-banding, but you don't need to play these older teams. You can just ignore them and play teams the same age as your own who probably won't have 4 skill players etc.

In the box, the scheduler has protection to stop you ending up playing a 50+ game team with your <5 game old team.

In ranked, "picking" games so that someone like you is left in a matchup like this is seen as part of the scene. I completely disagree with it, and think it's the pursuit of parasites, but that's another story.

Remember, you do not need to agree to any challenges in the ranked division.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 09:47 Reply with quote Back to top

"....It's too much work just to have a fair chance."

your orc team currently has 1570 TV, 3RR, 7FF, 12 players - standard lineup
this is not bloated, at all. you don't need to trim, although you might replace injured players at some point

there's no great rebuild required for you, here
you've grown quite fast for 13 games played, but your team is a pretty average mid-tv size.
any games you play against similar size should give you a fair chance, as much as any you get in this game.


TV-management is part of the game though, because (outside of leagues and tournaments) it's a TV-matching environment.
be aware that if you grow the team in ways that doesn't make the team directly stronger at what it's supposed to do, it'll be less TV-efficient which means when you match against similar size team, you've "given away" effective skills for them

It's beneficial to replace injured players because they still cost the same but are less effective
Keep the troll though, block is too useful and troll doesn't need AG (throw team mate?)

A good example of TV management is lizardmen
if the skinks get all the touchdowns, SPP and skills, but only have Agility acccess, you run out of worthwhile improvements to take, your saurus remain neglected
if you fire the skinks when they get too many basic skills and no stat-ups, you keep TV down while your saurus can develop.
(a team with 20 skills on saurus is much better than a team with 20 skills on skinks)


Last edited by Sp00keh on May 20, 2017 - 10:09; edited 1 time in total
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 10:04 Reply with quote Back to top

treasury management is also important
ideally you want ~250-290k, this means you don't get hit by the worst results from Expensive Mistakes rule, but you also have enough cash to replace players if your team got smashed

if you have more than this, can 'waste' it by buying/selling stuff, or replacing players that you were dithering about, or replace players that rolled only normal upgrades - some players really want +stats and doubles, like werewolf wants mighty blow, skinks want +AG or +MV
(moment of silence for this guy)
if you have less than say 200k and don't need to spend, just save up


when you get into game, client transfers all your treasury so you can spend it on inducments if you want.
generally don't do this, if you're the underdog you get the TV difference to spend as well, just spend that and keep your treasury intact, (it gets transfered back to you after)


also, something no one told me for ~300 games - you can shift+right click on players in client to mark them with text
eg put 'G' on all the guards. its so useful!


Last edited by Sp00keh on May 20, 2017 - 10:07; edited 1 time in total
Wreckage



Joined: Aug 15, 2004

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 10:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:

This translates into 50-100 playing hours just to trim the TV enough. Wow.


Investing hundreds of hours to develop a perfect team to try to only then cheese wins sounds not only like a cheeseball strategy, it would also make those wins just those of a cheeseball.

The answer is: Play fair, play right, play conscious and just win your games.
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 11:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:
Thanks for the replies guys. The main issue isn't TV in itself. The main issue is the relative number of skills that certain teams have aquired over the many,many games they have played before .
To give a blunt example a rookie human blitzer gives 90k of TV - equal to 4 skills on another player.
So two teams will have roughly the same TV - while one has an extra rookie player and the other has 4 skills on one of their players.

So people seldomly take more then 11-12 players, and have 2-3 players with 5-6 skills.

The simple fix for it is to have skills increase TV more then extra players. That would be fair.
The way this is done now,IMHO ,always gives an advantage to the teams that have "recycled" more lineman and have a few stars.

Think about the following example:

Team A has played 5 games , 3 players have a skill each . The team started with higher FF to earn more cash .And they did. Now they have 14 players.
Lets say ther TV is 1500.

Team B started wiht FF 1 and has dropped lineman after lineman, and has 4 players that have 3-4 skills each - and the rest are ok, or vandering lineman (irrelevant). Team B has 11 players total.

Team B is at a HUGE advantage. They can field their entire TV in a single drive. Team A can only field a portion.

Skills grown through play should increase TV more then extra players.

Second solution would be to calculate TV based on the starting 11 players .

The logic behind this is to stimulate people not to drop players just to have lower TV. It makes perfect sense that, if you can score/defend against the best 11 opposing players, you can also score/defend against the reserves.


Result: blodge amazon linewoman army

Dorfs with 11 players - 1 guard each
Kondor



Joined: Apr 04, 2008

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 11:03 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova,

Your 7/7/11 record is extremely good for someone who has not played a ton of games around here. Don't get down about some bad games. Learn from them and enjoy the next one.

In ranked, my recommendation is to take games no more than 100 TV above yours. Sure you will still get a few underdogs with amazing players that make winning difficult but most games will be well matched.

If you do not want to face older teams you can take a look at the number of games a team has played by clicking the blue icon next to the other team name in game finder. However, I don't think you will find it necessary after a couple of matches.

With the new MVP system you will be able to skill up your own core of 3-5 players fairly quickly.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: May 20, 2017 - 11:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Krunkova wrote:
ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
He probably has in the past mrt. What he's talking about with FF and mass linos is building your team lrb4 style.

He's not adapted to CRP mechanics (which have brought forth into BB2016) and doesn't realise FF is now a tax on success and having a bench/large rerolls is a choice you make, not something everyone does.


Thanks- this is probably what I was looking for.

Yes ,I have played an ass load of games, thank you.

Where can I find some guide on CRP mechanics? It did seem logical tha having more re-rolls (so u buy them while they are cheap) and a higher FF(that would bring more cash ) is something everyone does.

Since as it stands, it seems it's the other way around. The key to success is just play a shitload of games and have your key 4-5 players survive. Everything else is irrelevant.

That would mean I need to invest 1-2 hours into every game, and -i do (just like everyone else to be fair), and play at least 25 games to have a chance. All that in order to cycle enough lineman to reach a point where 25 MVP awards are distributed between 3-4 players.

This translates into 50-100 playing hours just to trim the TV enough. Wow.

I have a feeling this isn't what I was looking for.

It's too much work just to have a fair chance.


No. That is not the way it is.

Don't grow the team too fast. You don't need to rush to 14/15 players and loads of RRs.

In the Ranked division you can choose your matches. So you don't have to take a match that looks unfair to you. Though if everyone is too picky no one gets a match.

Did you trim your team? It looks about right now.

If you build steadily you'll be playing even matches and it won't seem like a chore.

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