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Poll
Would you participate in an open Blood bowl?
Yes
42%
 42%  [ 6 ]
No
28%
 28%  [ 4 ]
Pie in your face!
14%
 14%  [ 2 ]
... Mmmmm PIE
14%
 14%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 14


delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 07:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Blood bowl is owned by Games Workshop. So far they have been reasonably malevolent on their trade name.

But I can see WAY more hours go into bb on this forum then from GW. Has anyone tried to make an Open Blood bowl (oh no the gifs that will be posted in response)?

Just curious because I could imagine a concept similar to BB but derived by characters under an open license.
robocoyote



Joined: Oct 19, 2010

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 08:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Like Secret League?
Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 08:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Do you mean a generic fantasy football game? Like guild ball but with a set movement grid and much more similar to bloodbowl in play style?
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 09:46 Reply with quote Back to top

The general understanding seems to be that we benefit from playing the "original" game on Fumbbl in the competitive divisions, as opposed to doing our own thing. It's basically the only way to pull in fresh players. No single "open" / "fan" project could unite the player base. Plasmoid has tried, maybe he'll report.

Although I do think that the NAF has done it, to an extent. The ressurection format with limited availability of inducements, usually no cards, no illegal procedure rule, and currently still using CRP instead of BB16, is pretty much a customized rules set. They do call it Blood Bowl though, not Fantasy Football or some such, as the custom miniature companies do for trade mark reasons.
finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 09:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Very interesting idea. Feels like I had it myself, about a million times. Could mean 1001 different things, though (and even more Wink ).

On a very fundamental level I would fancy a redesign based on a hexagonal grid, or Hex-map as it is also called.
One benefit would be, that the characteristic movement of players would actually resemble movement in the real world. I.e. right now, players move "quicker" (further with the same amount of squares), moving diagonally and "slower" when moving in a straight line. This is in contradiction to intuition and also other in-game-elements (i.e. throwing, which adheres to real-world-distances). Very Happy

But this is just one (very fundamental) design-aspect of the game. Changing that would also involve adjusting numerous other elements, because it would affect the number of tackle-zones (adjacent "squares" or rather hexagons) of a player etc.

So I guess there would be a number of levels you could think of redesigning fantasy football - I can think of at least four (very rough) distinctions:

level 0: Fundamental principles: board-design (size, tesselation, etc., setup-rules, etc.), mechanical principles (turn-based vs. time-based, number of turns, amount of time, ...)
level 1: Everything involving the mechanics of single actions and the interaction of players within a game (blocks, blitzes, tackles, pick-ups, skills and all those rules that makes fantasy football feel like the game it is...)
level 2: Rules for the composition of teams (rosters, characteristics of players, costs, ...)
level 3: Rules for the interaction of teams beyond single games (league-rules, expensive mistakes, match-making, etc...)

Most of the services (Edit: that differ or go beyond the original bb-rules) fumbbl offers (on a mechanical level - so not including chatting, forums and fluff) are located on level 3, I think. With the exception of leagues (including stunty), which is located on level 2. Derivations of level 1 are mostly (all?) considered bugs or special-league-rules. I don't think there exist derivations on level 0 (apart from fumbbl-specific interpretations of the 4-min-turn-rule or 1-min-leagues, etc.)

So when talking about redesigning, I think it is very important to specify, which level you are talking about. Also it doesn't make sense to redesign on an upper level first if you're not pretty clear on the design of a lower level, yet (kinda like building a house. You got to start with the foundation and have to move up from there - most of the time, anyways). Wink


Last edited by finsterface on Jul 12, 2017 - 18:23; edited 1 time in total
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 09:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Also there is this:

https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=10051&op=view
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 10:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Verminardo wrote:
Also there is this:

https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=10051&op=view


Mr_J just tweaked the rosters, but he keeps the ruleset as is.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 11:41 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:
Blood bowl is owned by Games Workshop. So far they have been reasonably malevolent on their trade name.

But I can see WAY more hours go into bb on this forum then from GW. Has anyone tried to make an Open Blood bowl (oh no the gifs that will be posted in response)?

Just curious because I could imagine a concept similar to BB but derived by characters under an open license.


Nice idea. But your "Open Blood Bowl" would actually need to be "good".

If you have been following the forums you would know that people have very different ideas about what "good" is.

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mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 13:45
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

zakatan wrote:
Verminardo wrote:
Also there is this:

https://fumbbl.com/p/group&group=10051&op=view


Mr_J just tweaked the rosters, but he keeps the ruleset as is.


If you click the 'Forum' link in my sig I did also do a ruleset based on WhatBall's template. Not a lot of people read it, and it still needs polishing up a bit, but it is there if anyone wanted to take a read. I'd never expect to see it on FUMBBL though.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jul 12, 2017 - 19:26 Reply with quote Back to top

I would really like an improved and living, updating version of BB.
The current game is nice but has many flaws. The diagonal movement aberration, as finsterface told, is one of them and a hex grid would fix it, but there are other things that could be improved, such like the blocking system, the Kick-Off events, skills like Sneaky Git and Pass Block, the KO recovery system, the fouling mechanic, the D6 system that doesn't allow too many modifiers (this means luck having sometimes more influence than coach's skill), lack of hit points (Big Guys would be suddenly more useful if they had 2 hit points), too much emphasy on stalling, inaccurate TV, the design of some rosters.

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delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2017 - 07:17 Reply with quote Back to top

Guardikai wrote:
Do you mean a generic fantasy football game? Like guild ball but with a set movement grid and much more similar to bloodbowl in play style?


Yes I mean a more generic fantasy football game. I.e. a Blood bowl but owned by the community.

My main reason for asking this is that I see SO, SOOOO much work from everyone in Blood bowl. I totally respect Games workshop for not closing fumbbl and Not enforcing a stricter copyright. But that possibility still hangs over the site.

The other big reason is Blood Bowl is quite flawed. Block dice is a little too blunt, skills are too skewed (block, dodge and Guard are superskills). Hex field as others have mentioned. AG used for almost everything but blocking. Look it's a great dynamic game, but it can be improved. It is very playable but could be better.

I am thinking lets improve it. Even if it is only "here is an open
zakatan



Joined: May 17, 2008

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2017 - 07:30 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:
I totally respect Games workshop for not closing fumbbl and Not enforcing a stricter copyright.


I wouldn't say this is accurate. There's no GW IP in this site at all. Their lawyers made sure it is like this.

The only reason fumbbl is still working is not because GW is not enforcing their copyrights, it's because game mechanics can't registered as IP (the published text can be copirighted though, that's why there are no copies or links to the rulebook on fumbbl).

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finsterface



Joined: Apr 29, 2012

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2017 - 08:19 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:
The other big reason is Blood Bowl is quite flawed. Block dice is a little too blunt, skills are too skewed (block, dodge and Guard are superskills).


I wouldn't call it flawed, but I think you're right in that it's a very simplified ruleset which is designed to be played on tt. The current block dice *are* pretty crude. Only 5 different sets of probabilities (-3d, -2d, 1d, 2d, 3d) for two players blocking each other (from a snotling all the way to a treeman) without skills. Also the difference in probabilities between -2d, 1d, +2d (probably 99% of all blocks) are especially huge!

If the game was designed for pure computer-based-gaming (with automatic dice-rolling and calculations), it would most probably be much finer grained (without the actual rules having to be more complicated).
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2017 - 09:52 Reply with quote Back to top

zakatan wrote:
delusional wrote:
I totally respect Games workshop for not closing fumbbl and Not enforcing a stricter copyright.


I wouldn't say this is accurate. There's no GW IP in this site at all. Their lawyers made sure it is like this.

The only reason fumbbl is still working is not because GW is not enforcing their copyrights, it's because game mechanics can't registered as IP (the published text can be copirighted though, that's why there are no copies or links to the rulebook on fumbbl).


How did they get Cyanide? I heard that the pitch was part of it.

If they decided to take Christer to court would he fight them?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Jul 13, 2017 - 10:11 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:

The other big reason is Blood Bowl is quite flawed. Block dice is a little too blunt, skills are too skewed (block, dodge and Guard are superskills). Hex field as others have mentioned. AG used for almost everything but blocking. Look it's a great dynamic game, but it can be improved. It is very playable but could be better.

I am thinking lets improve it. Even if it is only "here is an open


Block dice too blunt? Really?

The further you go away from the current official rules, the more of the user base you lose.

You may be able to attract a new breed of coach. But once you go past a certain point, it wouldn't be blood bowl any more.
Hex pitch does seem interesting though. Wink

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Secret League - SLUMBBL Shield - 16th November!
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