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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 14:40 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
About divisions: cross compatibility between teams in L division and SL division would be nice.
When I'm looking for SL games on GF I often see L teams (sometimes challenging my SL teams), the compatibility would increase the chance of finding a game.


Generally being able to play against teams from a different ruleset would be a big help.

Maybe default to the standard league where there is a mismatch.

Specifying ruleset at tournament level would be cool too.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 14:44 Reply with quote Back to top

Mori-mori-mori wrote:


Yes, it is. It gives you another hard choice: spend TRR for armor/injury rerolling, or save it for possible bad rolls further in this turn. Hard choices is always good addition to mechanics.

Ah, the dilemma! Most of times it would not be a hard choice, especially if you do the important stuff before that last block with Piling On.

Mori-mori-mori wrote:

No, even with more TRRs it doesn't "simply" get you back the skill. First, TRRs add enormously to your team's TV, what means 300-500k more inducements.

So, the average team has 3 TRRs, let's say it adds 2 TRRs at 70k each (the most expensive ones, but some teams have cheaper ones).
You add 140 TV, not 300 TV, 210 TV if you add 3 TRRs.
Considering that you can remove 1 or 2 expensive players quite easily with Piling On, the extra TV is worth it.

Mori-mori-mori wrote:

And even for such price it will be nowhere close to what it was before. You still will need TRRs for stuff you need them anyway (rerolling handoffs, pickups, gfis, blocks failed too early etc), 3-4 of them per half.

Bash teams are not going to do a lot of fancy stuff with the ball and they can take Sure Hands for rerolling pick ups, about the blocks failed too early, since blocks are 2d based actions, and most bash teams have several Block players, they have to rr the double skulls and not even always.
Once they remove some players, the offence gets easier, and when the bash teams are playing defence, they can afford to blitz and use the TRR to pile on because they don't have to move the ball and protect the ball carrier.

Anyway, Piling On is gone, deal with it.

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Sharper



Joined: Nov 22, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 15:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Mori-mori-mori wrote:

How clear is it to you, now? Yes, it's optional, but, like I said, block assists are also optional, let's remove them too, right? They overpower bash teams as hell, you know.


Block assists and such are not optional rules. They are Extra Rules in BB16. You have your Basic Rules, Extra Rules and Optional Rules.
Mori-mori-mori



Joined: Dec 28, 2014

Post 1 Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 15:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

Ah, the dilemma! Most of times it would not be a hard choice, especially if you do the important stuff before that last block with Piling On.


No, it won't be "most of the times" now. In your described situation you said nothing about how much PO is in that particular team you imagine. So I take it it's just, say, 4 players (designated blockers) have it, otherwise you need to account for additional bloat added from ubiquitous presence of PO on all players to your inducements amount (that will be skill rarely used by most of them, just a pure bloat). So it's very situational now, as it's not given whether or not they will be even ready to attack that high priority target at the start of the turn. In many cases it won't be the only one high priority action this turn, and you'll need to decide whether you really need to attack it first, burning your TRR, or first try other important actions, potentially burning TRR there, losing opportunity for PO this turn (and due to mentioned above, you may not be able to PO this target next turn, as it will leave range of your few players which have the skill)

MattDakka wrote:

You add 140 TV, not 300 TV, 210 TV if you add 3 TRRs.
Considering that you can remove 1 or 2 expensive players quite easily with Piling On, the extra TV is worth it.


Yea, keep saying it like giving 210k of additional inducements in every your match is nothing. And don't forget to add in an excessive bloat from having a skill on every player which can't be used nowhere that often as before now to your calculations. Otherwise you need to consider the additional limitation of not having it in every point of the pitch now. And removing those players with PO rerolls is even nowhere as guaranteed as you try to put it, after all these costs you had to paid.

Are you serious here? In PO days bashers could throw up to 11 POs per turn, and it still didn't prevent different kind of elves from winning tournaments and reaching tops of leagues' ranks. Now they can, at best, throw 2-4 POs per half, and you are saying it's a horrible threat? May be somebody should, like, learn how to play a game? Wink

Quote:

Once they remove some players, the offence gets easier, and when the bash teams are playing defence, they can afford to blitz and use the TRR to pile on because they don't have to move the ball and protect the ball carrier.


Yea, like I said. It wasn't a big problem for good coaches before, when it could be 4-8 POs per turn. It not a problem now especially, when you have 2-4 POs per half, at best, much lesser players with the skill in your team (as it doesn't worth that much to bloat TV by giving it to everybody now), and you can't use it in each turn, if you've burned TRR already, or if you need it for other things (and by doing it you are losing opportunity to PO, like, you need to move the only player with the skill able to reach your intended target somewhere else)

Quote:
Anyway, Piling On is gone, deal with it.


PO didn't go nowhere, it's right here, in new rules. Removing it from fumbbl was a decision taken in a rash, without proper consideration. With all due respect, I trust GW's game designers more than some stunty/elves whiny coaches around Smile Good coaches were not whining about it much even back in the days of killer teams which could use PO 11 times per turn, so with current state of affairs, there is zero reasons to still call "overpowered", when it can be used 1 time per turn, at best.


Last edited by Mori-mori-mori on Aug 28, 2017 - 16:09; edited 5 times in total
Mori-mori-mori



Joined: Dec 28, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 15:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Sharper wrote:
Mori-mori-mori wrote:

How clear is it to you, now? Yes, it's optional, but, like I said, block assists are also optional, let's remove them too, right? They overpower bash teams as hell, you know.


Block assists and such are not optional rules. They are Extra Rules in BB16. You have your Basic Rules, Extra Rules and Optional Rules.


Sorry, my english is bad, perhaps. I may misread something here:

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 16:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Mori-mori-mori wrote:
May be somebody should, like, learn how to play a game? Wink

Please play in Black Box and teach me, Master!

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Jim_Fear



Joined: May 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 16:37 Reply with quote Back to top

A Guild to Being Lame:

1. Join Fumbbl
2. Play three (3) matches
3. Disappear for two (2) years
4. Come back and start an argument with Christer on how the rules are implemented

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Mori-mori-mori



Joined: Dec 28, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 16:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Yea, good point, @Jim_Fear Smile Let's take it to ad hominem plane now and have some fun Smile May be I went to a trip to Shaolin, playing BB all those years in a secluded environment to achieve an enlightenment, you can't completely neglect this possibility. And, btw, fumbbl is not the only way to play BB in the internet.

And it's not just humble me arguing with @Christer, I didn't write rules of DZ2 myself ))

For those who are still unsure about whether taken measures are enough to nerf PO, I would recommend to think of it like this: 3-4 additional TRRs to use it 3-4 times per half will cost you ~200k of additional inducements you'll give to opponent. That's 2 free bribes you are giving to your stunty/elves opponent with cheap positionals; after PO you are left lying on the ground. Should I continue?
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 17:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Mori-mori-mori wrote:
PO didn't go nowhere, it's right here, in new rules. Removing it from fumbbl was a decision taken in a rash, without proper consideration. With all due respect, I trust GW's game designers more than some stunty/elves whiny coaches around Smile Good coaches were not whining about it much even back in the days of killer teams which could use PO 11 times per turn, ...

There was a lot of discussion about it. Also as has been said it was in the optional rules with some discouraging text in the rulebook, not the extra rules which are usually kept in the game.
And as you have said extra rerolls use a lot of extra TV and you would use the skill less, so why are you so desperate to have it? It's not like you have old teams with loads of Piling on players.
Personally I would have liked to have been able to keep it for one Ogre in an Ogre team, at least for a player who already had the skill, but it's not a big deal. We don't have daily complaints on clawpomb and pomb anymore. Many of those complaints were by good coaches by the way. In fact good coaches complained that it spoilt the tactical game.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 17:57 Reply with quote Back to top

I for one have never enjoyed the game more without PO. The longer time goes by the more stupid PO as a skill seems.
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 17:58 Reply with quote Back to top

me loves me some rando whiners, me does.

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pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 17:58 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
I for one have never enjoyed the game more without PO. The longer time goes by the more stupid PO as a skill seems.


totally agreed. remove the claw/mb stacking, and it would get even better.

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 18:05 Reply with quote Back to top

Mori-mori-mori wrote:

And it's not just humble me arguing with @Christer, I didn't write rules of DZ2 myself ))


The commissioner's word is law.

If you want to be commissioner you can create a league in the League Division and add PO back in.

If you play in any other league it is... "their league, their rules".

Mori-mori-mori wrote:

PO didn't go nowhere, it's right here, in new rules. Removing it from fumbbl was a decision taken in a rash, without proper consideration.


You're right. I am sure that no one discussed it while you were away.

Mori-mori-mori wrote:

With all due respect, I trust GW's game designers more than some stunty/elves whiny coaches around Smile Good coaches were not whining about it much even back in the days of killer teams which could use PO 11 times per turn, so with current state of affairs, there is zero reasons to still call "overpowered", when it can be used 1 time per turn, at best.


Even though I agree that completely removing it horrible, I don't see any reason to put faith in GW. Wink

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Sharper



Joined: Nov 22, 2006

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 18:20 Reply with quote Back to top

"This skill can be found in previous editions of Blood Bowl, but has been removed in this edition as it can lead to some very nasty combos. Some Commissioners will want it though.... so here it is" DZ1 pg 26

That pretty much says its not expected to be played by default, but more for the leagues that want it.
Mori-mori-mori



Joined: Dec 28, 2014

Post   Posted: Aug 28, 2017 - 19:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Sharper wrote:

That pretty much says its not expected to be played by default, but more for the leagues that want it.


You are quoting DZ1 again. In DZ2 it's moved into "Skill updates" section, and was severely limited by requirement to use TRR for it - probably with intention to make it more acceptable mechanic for both bash and agi teams, don't you think? Yes, it still comes with comment that its usage is optional, but we already have discussed this before, not much will remain in BB if all optional rules will be removed. So far I've seen only one good argument why it should stay like this - it's Koadah referencing commissioner's will rule. Whatever Smile If commissioners intend to indulge pixel hugging and pokemon collecting urges, who am I to object ))


Last edited by Mori-mori-mori on Aug 28, 2017 - 19:42; edited 1 time in total
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