The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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 Posted:
Aug 04, 2017 - 13:53 |
 
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THAT is a well written counter-argument to the initial "no-brainer" statement made. Thanks! Your experience with humans and Blood Bowl should be discounted by no one. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2017 - 14:09 |
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Kicking/receiving is related to match up and rosters, skills and bench, hard to tell without knowing the rosters.
As Elves I tend to kick to Lizardmen because it's harder to stall vs a full team that can potentially score in 1 turn with a Skink, while as Lizardmen I think that kicking/receiving doesn't make a difference, unless I'm playing vs nasty bashers; they can either pressure well or stall well thanks to high ST and speed, unless they are outnumbered (vs Elves they should not expect many casualties). |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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Aug 04, 2017 - 20:07 |
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| MattDakka wrote: | | Kicking/receiving is related to match up and rosters, skills and bench, hard to tell without knowing the rosters. |
Nah, it's easy. Always receive when you have the option and laugh like a maniac when your opponent chooses to kick to you.
| MattDakka wrote: | | As Elves I tend to kick to Lizardmen because it's harder to stall vs a full team that can potentially score in 1 turn with a Skink, |
Harder for whom to stall? The elves or the Lizards? But it really doesn't matter how hard or easy it is to stall, what matters is how hard or easy it is to SCORE.
People get far to wrapped up in stalling strategies frankly. Often your best course of action is to just score whenever 'best' (still 'best' turn 8, but you don't always have this luxury) and let your opponent try to counter you.
Of course there are too many 'what ifs' to really answer that question properly, but the notion that you're better off playing defense with a full 11 has always seemed couched on your ability to score an equalizer when down players anyway.
That implies that you can score 'easily', because you are elfs or have a one turner, or have players well suited to performing a 2 turn score.
In which case...
Why not score in 2 turns, and then kick the ball to the opponent up 1-0 and still be defending with (likely) a full 11 since your opponent will have had exactly one blitz to use against you?
That seems much more logical than defending a 0-0 game with 11 and hoping you have enough players/turns to equalize before the half.
Of course, if you are the bash side, you never kick. Never.
| MattDakka wrote: | | while as Lizardmen I think that kicking/receiving doesn't make a difference, unless I'm playing vs nasty bashers; they can either pressure well or stall well thanks to high ST and speed, unless they are outnumbered (vs Elves they should not expect many casualties). |
Doesn't make a difference unless it makes a difference is a very odd way to say 'always receive'. |
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Bazakastine
Joined: Mar 21, 2014
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Aug 04, 2017 - 21:32 |
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Well as a coach who chooses to kick 90+% of the time I strongly disagree with the always receive sentiment.
Lizards greatest asset is their mix of speed and strength that give you the ability to control pace. As Licker mentioned scoring at the best time is ideal but if you receive in the first half you don't have the information to know what time that is. On the other hand if you receive in the 2nd off you do.
Up 1-0? score quickly and the game is over. No need to risk stalling.
Tied 1-1 or 0-0? Stall out till turn 8 if you can.
Down 0-1? Here you have to look at the teams and make a decision to play for the win or the draw.
Now to an extend this is personal preference. Personally I do better when I kick first. In addition it increases my enjoyment of games because if I kick first and have my plan blown up by dice I have time to recover. If I receive first and it gets blown up by dice (and it does skinks drop the ball a ton) I am in serious trouble.
None of this even mentions the oneturning chance which Lizards do have. It's better to try to oneturn in turn 8 than 16 in general because you have time to react if it fails.
In reality neither always kick or always receive is the right choice. Coaches play differently.
Some are plan A coaches who like to impose their will on the game from the start with a strong offensive drive and make their opponent play their game. These like to receive.
Some are reactive coaches who prefer the most information for their offensive half so they chose what they think is the best plan at that point. (clearly this what I think I am)
Some are going to pick and chose one way or the other match to match.
Saying that there is only one way to go is frankly just wrong. |
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uzkulak
Joined: Mar 30, 2004
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2017 - 21:46 |
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As an elf coach I want to receive, score in turn 4-5 then, when I still have a full-ish team, steal the ball and score again before the half. After that it should be fairly straightforward to stay ahead.
Stopping a competent elf drive from scoring normally depends on the elves rolling snakes in my experience - which does happen but should not be relied upon  |
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The_Murker
Joined: Jan 30, 2011
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2017 - 21:52 |
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"Of course, if you are the bash side, you never kick. Never. "
I find this very strong on confidence, weak on supporting evidence.
Lizards receive: 4 guaranteed blocks to make their mark..
Lizards kick: 8 guaranteed blocks to make their mark.. unless they do well and prevent the score.
Never kick? I think if lizards scored in 2 turns against my dark elves and then gave my uninjured team the ball for 14 turns, I'd be the one laughing like a maniac. |
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kummo
Joined: Mar 29, 2016
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2017 - 22:27 |
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| The_Murker wrote: | | Never kick? I think if lizards scored in 2 turns against my dark elves and then gave my uninjured team the ball for 14 turns, I'd be the one laughing like a maniac. |
Lol, agree :thumbsup:
Unless they have agi4 stripballwrestleskink and i don't have surehands.. but if i have full 11 (or better yet: 12 or 13 elfs), some dodge vs no tackle at all.. yeah.. i would be the one laughing. |
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PurpleChest
Joined: Oct 25, 2003
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I like to have the ball, i feel I can control the clock better that way.
Not 100%, there are times to kick.
But a lot of them the option of 'notching a quick one' and kicking when they have less than 8 turns appeals as it gives them a time pressure.
As lizzards I think you fear 8 turns of chasing shadows and a bleak 0-1 halftime. get the ball, get stuck in, get ahead.
For me. |
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MattDakka
Joined: Oct 09, 2007
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| Posted:
Aug 04, 2017 - 22:51 |
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| licker wrote: |
Nah, it's easy. Always receive when you have the option and laugh like a maniac when your opponent chooses to kick to you. |
I disagree about "receiving always". If I know how my opponent plays (in a league for example) I could decide to kick.
For example vs Skaven with one turner I chose to kick as Khemri. I don't believe in absolutes when talking about kicking/receive, although I think that some teams are better at defending/attacking due to their skills and tactics.
| licker wrote: | | Harder for whom to stall? The elves or the Lizards? |
Harder for the elves because the Lizardmen, at the TV where I generally play in the Box with them (1600+ with HE/DE/WE and lower with EU) have more bash skills and ST than the elves and they have often a one turner. If I kick I can pressure the Lizardmen better due to having a full team and being able to exploit Blitz! and generally playing a more aggressive defence.
| licker wrote: | | But it really doesn't matter how hard or easy it is to stall, what matters is how hard or easy it is to SCORE. |
I disagree. Scoring is generally easy with many teams, the tricky/important thing is scoring as late as possible to reduce the chance of your opponent scoring.
| licker wrote: | | People get far to wrapped up in stalling strategies frankly. Often your best course of action is to just score whenever 'best' (still 'best' turn 8, but you don't always have this luxury) and let your opponent try to counter you. |
If you play vs certain opponents then yes, scoring as fast as possible can be an effective strategy, especially if they are unable to protect the ball and don't stall. In my experience scoring as fast as possible doesn't work vs good coaches in the Box.
| licker wrote: |
Why not score in 2 turns, and then kick the ball to the opponent up 1-0 and still be defending with (likely) a full 11 since your opponent will have had exactly one blitz to use against you? |
I don't score in 2 turns because I expect that my opponent will stall and score on turn 8, then he will receive again in the 2nd half and will do the same, winning with a classic 2-1.
| licker wrote: |
Doesn't make a difference unless it makes a difference is a very odd way to say 'always receive'. |
Not at all. Playing Lizardmen vs a bash team with many TackleMB/Claw is different from playing Lizardmen vs the same team with less damage skills.
If I played Lizardmen vs Elves I could decide to kick and force them to score before turn 8 in order to score the equalizer TD at the end of 1st half.
I check the opponent team's skills before deciding to kick.
Also, another important factor is the weather, with Pouring Rain and as Khemri I'm not going to receive, especially if I'm playing vs Elves or Skaven.
So I don't trust the "never kick with bashers" absolute. |
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licker
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2017 - 00:01 |
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Did I say that every team should score in 2 turns? No, I said that you should score when it is 'best' to score, usually the goal is turn 8, but it doesn't have to be, and indeed, depending on how the dice have treated you, it may be best to eschew a stall and just score if you can. Because 1-0 with the chance or 1-1 is better than 0-0, or worse 0-1.
But that's generic advice, and more geared towards answering the people who say 'kick so that you can defend with 11', because that specific bit of logic is illogical. Score in 2 turns and defend up 1-0 with 11 seems a much sounder option.
Your worst outcome (likely, outside of elf on elf or multiple one turners, which is a completely different kind of analysis) is 1-1 then. But if you had just kicked to them and they were able to grind you anyway, then it would be 0-1. You get the ball down one, as opposed to kicking the ball in a tied game.
Now specific to being Lizards against Dark Elves without specific knowledge of TVs or skills...
You would still want to receive because you are still somewhat predicated on winning the game by getting an attrition advantage (though this is not as important in this matchup as in others as you are unlikely to lose attrition unless the elfs have a mighty blow tacklers to hunt your skinks with). Of course you can win without winning attrition, but generally it's harder to beat elfs if they keep the numbers on you.
So why are you giving them 8 turns of a full team to do whatever they can do with it? This makes almost no sense. Your offense should be 'easy' to cage in scoring range and then score whenever you want/need to. You make it 1-0 and they have to score 2 times to win. You have to score zero times at that point to win.
I have noticed lately (BB2...) that a lot more of my games are ending 1-0 because my opponents are going for ridiculous stalls, or are giving me the first half on offense to depitch them. So yeah, elfs can score with only 2 players, but are they actually likely to?
Score with 11 players, limit blocks against you, then you STILL are defending with 11 players (depending on nuffle obviously).
As opposed to kicking, and not scoring, and winding up down a few players (on average) or simply out of the game if nuffle really removed your team.
There is a large advantage in scoring first, even if early. Kicking makes it fairly unlikely that you will score first. I've played around 100 games with WE on BB2 and I choose to go the 'always kick' routine for 20+. My results were much worse (still good mind you, but that's a different argument) than when I just took the ball and scored first on whatever turn I deemed it necessary.
Try it yourself. |
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kummo
Joined: Mar 29, 2016
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| Posted:
Aug 05, 2017 - 00:44 |
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Well.. with woodies you could even go for enarion run
and woodies do have leaping sacker that helps alot (+ movement and agility to really steal the ball and counter heavily)
With woodies you could easily go 2-1, 3-1 or 3-2 wins.. try that with darkies.. ideally those should end 1-0 if you score lets say on turn 4 and defense heavily.. but then you should also defend next 8 turns (delfs get leaping sacker much later since they control field with blodgestep much more effectively... imo they can't capitalize the steals as well as woodies can) so delfs either end 1-0 win (ideally) or 1-1 tie (since defending for 8 turns might not work.. especially against bash) |
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