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Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 11:00 Reply with quote Back to top

What should be the precise order of operations, when a Break Tackle player dodges from a Diving Tackle player?

Also, how does Fumbbl implement it?
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 13:35 Reply with quote Back to top

Should be, according to NAF clarifications,

1. dodge player,
2. roll die for dodge,
3. announce if using BT,
4. opponent may announce use of DT,
5. resolve success or failure, may Re-Roll here.
6. announce if using BT on Re-Roll if not already using it,
7. opponent may announce use of DT on Re-Roll if not already using it,
8. resolve success of Re-Roll.

Client does ...

Basically reverses the DT and BT use, and won't let you use DT to force the active player to use BT, which is then not used because there was no DT to force it.

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Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 13:42 Reply with quote Back to top

Interesting, thank you.

So, it's quite possible for the existence of the DT skill to force usage of the BT skill, even without DT being used.

(e.g., a BT Ogre dodging into space away from a DT Slann Blitzer, and rolling a 4)
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 21:12 Reply with quote Back to top

It is surprising that the diving tackler gets to see the dodge roll before deciding to diving tackle. I suppose it represents that moment of the player moving away before the tackler decides they need to dive after them.
On fumbbl I think you are prompted to use diving tackle before seeing the roll? So you don't know if it works yet.

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Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 21:39 Reply with quote Back to top

You certainly see the results of the roll before using the skill - that's common to all skills in Blood Bowl. The weirdness here is that in the specific case of Break Tackle, you may have to use the skill when you don't need to, preemptively. That, I think, is a unique case.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 21:52 Reply with quote Back to top

I'm not sure I see what are you talking about?

If you follow the sequence Tussock has laid out, you only ever use Break Tackle if you have to:

1. Announce intent to Dodge
2. Roll Dice for dodge

At this point, if you pass the dodge roll (eg. roll the 4+ in your example), you don't do step 3. There's no need. So you are not using Break Tackle.

If you fail the dodge, you can use Break Tackle if it would let you pass it, or reroll it (you could, also, opt not to use Break Tackle initially and try to reroll without it if you wanted to, but FUMBBL's client won't let you do that).

Either way, we get to:

4. Opponent announces use of Diving Tackle.

At this point Break Tackle has never been used unless it was needed.


If we take your example it would be:

Ogre announces dodge
rolls 4+ (don't use Break Tackle)
Slann Blitzer has the choice to Use Diving Tackle

If the Slann Coach doesn't use Diving Tackle, Ogre has dodged, and still has Break Tackle to use in the rest of his move.

If the Slann Coach does use Diving Tackle... well, he can use Break Tackle now (and you would certainly use it in this instance here, because the Ogre, being a loner, is not good odds to pass the Loner roll and then roll the 6+ he needs to beat the -2 Dodge).

Either way, it's not being used unless needed.

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Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 22:56 Reply with quote Back to top

Nothing in the above sequence allows for the use of Break Tackle *after* the Diving Tackle declaration (assuming there are no re-rolls).

Indeed, the rules (CRP and BB2016) do have that if you have two skills that resolve simultaneously, the acting player resolves first.

This means (if this is true) that the Ogre who rolls a 4 might be forced to use the skill unnecessarily, as a preemptive measure (preventing future Break Tackles in that turn).

The weird thing is that nothing else in Blood Bowl works this way - normally everything is perfect information, and you can see the results of die rolls before modifying them.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 23:15 Reply with quote Back to top

to quote Galak

Quote:
I'll be curious to see Ian's judgment on this. But just because the active coach goes first does not mean he does not get to respond third per my ruling on this that I've made in the past.

Active player with ST 5 and AG 2 rolls a 5 for a dodge.

Active player is asked if he wants to use skills ... "nope ... all good here".

Opposing player says "I'll use Diving Tackle"

Active player goes ... "okay then I'll use Break Tackle"

Opposing player goes prone and the active player uses Break Tackle to get away but doesn't have it to use later the same turn.

This is how I've always ruled that this works. There is no reason to use Break Tackle on a successful roll and there is nothing in the rules that forces you to use a skill because of what your opponent "might" do. Finally while the rulebook says which coach must declare first ... it does not say that the declarations of skills cannot go back to the active player after the opposing player declares.

Galak




Incidentally the Diving Tackle confusion probably comes as a result of the way it used to function in older editions.

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Domfluff



Joined: Dec 23, 2016

Post   Posted: Aug 15, 2017 - 23:54 Reply with quote Back to top

I did find that discussion on TFF - this was around LRB5, and he did mention possibly changing this in future editions, and didn't. There could be any number of reasons for that, of course.

I think that's probably the right answer, but I don't see any actual justification for that ruling (Unless Tom Ander's word is enough)
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2017 - 03:01 Reply with quote Back to top

So in the client if you are prompted to use diving tackle that means using it causes the opponent to fail (presuming no break tackle)? Or it prompts you even if a 6 was rolled and diving tackle can not help? I think the latter as I've used it before and a player has dodged successfully as I remember.
I've never noticed the roll prior to the dt prompt and always thought when prompted I will use diving tackle and hope he doesn't roll 4+ or whatever needed.

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tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2017 - 06:58 Reply with quote Back to top

In client, you can only use Diving Tackle if it would cause the current roll to fail when using Break Tackle, and so a BT Ogre dodging and rolling a 4, you can't use DT (it just says "Diving Tackle isn't used because it wouldn't help") because it wouldn't work if the Ogre used BT, and as a result the Ogre doesn't use BT because you didn't use DT.


By the rules, BT has to be used first, active player declares skills, then other player declares skills, end of story. Despite Galak suggesting that having to declare a skill first doesn't stop you declaring it last, of course it does, that's what those words mean. If you have to declare your skills first, you have to declare your skills first. Tautology is tautology.

If the Ogre rolls 4 vs DT, he uses BT because it's the safe option, and the defender who always declares skills second has the option to use DT even though it would not help.

But hey, most people seem to be quite happy to skip that rule for BT vs DT. So whatever.

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garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2017 - 07:21 Reply with quote Back to top

I think the client should be adjusted so you are not prompted to use it if it can't help based on rolls made. Why encourage misclicks etc? Similar to when there is a -2db and skull and pow come up. Skull should be auto selected. Though I did see a hilarious match last month when someone chose the pow against their ball carrier in that situation and tried to justify it was the right choice and that they were just unlucky the resulting ball scatter lost them the match.

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Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2017 - 09:15 Reply with quote Back to top

With jump up, you might want to use diving tackle just to effectively get an extra square of movement, but it's a rare enough case that it's probably for the best to ignore it.

Can someone point me to where the actual rulebook itself says anything whatsoever about which player declares their skills first? It's not that I doubt everyone, but I'm completely failing to find the exact wording myself.
tussock



Joined: May 29, 2011

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2017 - 10:00 Reply with quote Back to top

CRP p14, 2nd last paragraph.

Quote:
Some skills are also used in the opponent's turn. In this case you may choose to use the skill after the opposing coach carries out an Action or moves a square. If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first.


The active coach may declare skills before or after the dice roll, the other coach may only declare skill use after it, and the active coach must declare their skills used first if both may modify the same event. Same text appears on p20 of BB2016.

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Irgy



Joined: Feb 21, 2007

Post   Posted: Aug 16, 2017 - 10:30 Reply with quote Back to top

tussock wrote:
CRP p14, 2nd last paragraph.

Quote:
Some skills are also used in the opponent's turn. In this case you may choose to use the skill after the opposing coach carries out an Action or moves a square. If both coaches want to use a skill to affect the same Action or move, then the coach whose turn is taking place must use his skill first.


The active coach may declare skills before or after the dice roll, the other coach may only declare skill use after it, and the active coach must declare their skills used first if both may modify the same event. Same text appears on p20 of BB2016.


Right, thanks, I was searching for words like "optional" and "declare" was why I didn't find it ("skill" had way too many hits).

The way Galak describes it is certainly a way that it could have worked, but the way the rules are worded I have to agree with you wholeheartedly Tussock that his description is outright inconsistent with what the rulebook says. Your earlier paraphrasing of what it says had left me a little doubtful but what's written is quite clear. The active player doesn't just get a chance to choose his skill first, he "must use" it first, so it makes no sense at all to be able to use BT after DT.

I wonder whether the way the client works is a bug, deliberately chosen so as to minimise pop-ups, or just whatever was easiest to implement?
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