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Poll
Four blitzers or 3 & a Witch Elf?
Blitzers
55%
 55%  [ 34 ]
Witch Elf
44%
 44%  [ 27 ]
Total Votes : 61


Dominik



Joined: Oct 29, 2004

Post   Posted: Aug 30, 2017 - 06:11 Reply with quote Back to top

Taking a Witch at the beginning gives me more turnovers.
soranos



Joined: May 14, 2009

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2017 - 09:32 Reply with quote Back to top

I feel the need to stand up for the little guy. I consider the hate against the runner to go away overboard. In short leagues he offers a shortcut to leader and on a fully developed team he will normally be your 7th or 8th most important guy (depending on how many witches and guard-limos you have). So I found the notion that you can not win a Major with a runner taking it way too far. Just like looking into data or running experimental style teams. The runner won't make your team but he will hardly break it either.
At 80k the runner is probably a tad overcrowded as you basically swap MA for AV and receive a skill you would probably never take and a skill access you do not really need. Still, you will most likely only take 1 runner and he is only 10k above the base cost. So bloat can not really be the issue (on the same token, I would argue that the witch is a bit overpriced as well, but that is another topic).
So, why do I still like the runner? Because he frees me from the 'burden' of skulking a Blitzer as a ballcarrier. Yes, you can perfectly argue that you can spare one of them, but I simply do not like giving sure hands to a Blitzer. If I roll a 5+5 on a Blitzer or a witch that I want to give them MB or guard, a runner I can happily give MA+. MA8 is often the line, when you realistically hope to have an chance to score in one turn.
DE are elfs, but even with great coaches you will see that they can struggle on offense once they are down players. I personally value that MA over AV in this case. I feel that in that capacity he can contribute to an otherwise slow team. Others are perfectly right to favor AV over MA if they feel it fits their style of play better. The runner is an OPTION to customize the DE roster to your liking. Nothing more and nothing less. AV7 is not pretty, but a LOT of BB players have it and most of them are perfectly viable players. In the post-PO era it is even less of an issue.
Dump-off is not great and you will hope to never use it, but it is one if those skills that you don't like to face as an opponent as you will have to decide between marking players or saving them for retrieving or marking the ball. Often it will not work, but if it does the impact is often huge in that it can completely change the momentum of the game by saving the drive. So the skill does make the runner MARGINALLY better as a carrier or retriever.
So I like the runner not for what he is (and I would not take him on any other elf team), but for giving me more freedom with the true power base if the team:the Blitzers.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2017 - 19:05 Reply with quote Back to top

I really don't mind the runner. I used to hate him, but he has his uses, and in the current meta, re-cycling runners to obtain a +MA/+MA player (for a legit OTTD threat) is fairly reasonable.

He does also, like the witch, introduce options - if you carry with a runner you can still attempt to sideline without SS, because even if you fail a covering dodge, or your opponent manages to dodge into the sideline cage, dump-off may yet save you. Is this optimal play? Absolutely not, but low TV elves with low rerolls are quite often left with sub-optimal options.

Is that going to be to everyone's taste? Nope. But you know what, introducing dogmatic choices into BB is pointless.

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TrueDestiny52



Joined: Mar 25, 2017

Post   Posted: Aug 31, 2017 - 19:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Agreeing with the people who like runners here, Dump Off is a surprisingly good skill for the break away from the cage. I've had my runner make those dump off passes almost every time simply because I know my opponent has 1 blitz per turn, so he can only blitz 1 ball carrier who can before getting hit, gives the ball to another player who will only be marked as opposed to blitzed. Blitzers should always attempt to accompany a runner downfield because then he can receive the dump off and score the following turn with less risk of the opposing team obtaining the ball.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Sep 05, 2017 - 18:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Licker I think it is fair enough to say you don't think Runners are worth more than linos. But saying move 7 is worthless is ridiculous. Regardless if the player is carrier or support. Eventually having a Runner to replace (or in addition to) a lino is a fair option. As someone linked Malmir did well with two Runners and it seems he isn't using them as dedicated ball carriers as his TDs are spread.

You have put on many skill option threads that +MA is a good choice as you can choose to use it on any turn. And that is when you pay +30k for it.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 05, 2017 - 18:28 Reply with quote Back to top

garyt1 wrote:
Licker I think it is fair enough to say you don't think Runners are worth more than linos. But saying move 7 is worthless is ridiculous.


Not at all. It's worthless when you ALREADY have 4-6 other players at that speed. If DE blitzers were MA6 then yeah, the runners would be much more useful.

garyt1 wrote:
Regardless if the player is carrier or support. Eventually having a Runner to replace (or in addition to) a lino is a fair option. As someone linked Malmir did well with two Runners and it seems he isn't using them as dedicated ball carriers as his TDs are spread.


Malmir could do well with assassins, but I'd guess he can do as well without Runners too. Some of it does depend on what you are building for, more on the low end, but if you're taking a team to 2000TV then it probably doesn't matter as much if you have a bloaty player or two because the TV is already so high that their % contribution to it is smaller.

garyt1 wrote:
You have put on many skill option threads that +MA is a good choice as you can choose to use it on any turn. And that is when you pay +30k for it.


That's when you compare it to taking +AV, but I also often argue that you shouldn't take MA if it doesn't make your player the fastest player on your team. Meaning I would say if you must use a 10 on a stat you should always take MA, but in many cases I would recommend skipping the stat completely.

And that is sort of the trade off with Runners and Linemen. You are trading a point of MA for a point of AV, and you're paying 10k extra for a mostly useless skill and P access (which is also nearly useless).

If you roll a 10 on a pro elf lineman (since they are AV7) do you take MA or do you take AV or do you take neither? The number of people who would take AV is probably higher than those who would take MA because they want the extra armor on that team. It's not a perfect comparison to DE, but the logic is not dissimilar. Elfs play better when they do not lose the attrition game. AV helps you more than MA does in the attrition game.

DE are not starved for MA7 players (nor AV8, but here herd immunity matters), so taking an additional 'luxury' MA7 who is going to be easier for the opponent to remove makes very little sense.

I mean we all agree that assassins are nonsense right? And a big reason why is because they are so easy to remove. Stab is a superior skill to dump off too, but no one seriously argues for playing with assassins.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Sep 05, 2017 - 18:38 Reply with quote Back to top

Assassins are overpriced, have MA 6 and Shadowing with poor interaction, no P access and AV 7, but even with AV 8 they would still be bad players, because they would not add speed and P access to the team.
Stab is nice vs AV 7 or less players, but to use it you need to be in contact quite often, while a Runner doesn't have to be in contact so often, therefore his AV 7 should not be compared to an Assassin's AV 7.

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Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Sep 05, 2017 - 18:39 Reply with quote Back to top

I always start with the Witch and especially in a short league it's the best way I think, you start off by carrying with her, giving you the benefit of Dodge which is especially useful with only 2 Rerolls, so this will win your first game. It will also skill her and so you can take Block, which gives you a Blodge Frenzy Jump Up player to blitz with, so until the Strength teams get their MB and Tackle lined up you will actually be the hardest hitter around (excepting Big Guys).

If you start with 4 Blitzers you'll only get the Witch much later, after you've bought an Apoth and a Reroll, so you have to save up some 240k which can take 5+ games, by that time there will be more Tackle around and it will be harder to skill her. Before you skill her you can't reliably blitz with her, so you only get to benefit from Frenzy by game 8-10, as opposed to game 2 if you start with her. I don't think having one additional Blitzer makes up for that.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 05, 2017 - 21:48 Reply with quote Back to top

the advantage of assassins are:

Shadowing, stab combo are a nice alternative to tackle.

Stab has no chance of a turnover...very nice at low TV

Stab doesn't care about strength, guard, etc...it's the honey-badger of bloodbowl. Making it an alternative to dauntless and guard.

opposing coaches tend to avoid assassins, leaving them free to roam and provide assists

assassins get awfully potent as they gain skills (even more important now with targeted mvps)

most opposing coaches have little experience dealing with stab/shadowing...forcing them to play outside their comfort zone and normal tactics.

in short, starting a dark elf team with an assassin means you have "tackle", "dauntless" and "guard" on your elf team. Very nice additions.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 05, 2017 - 23:26 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Assassins are overpriced, have MA 6 and Shadowing with poor interaction, no P access and AV 7, but even with AV 8 they would still be bad players, because they would not add speed and P access to the team.


2 things DEs don't need anyway. Because they already have the first, and the 2nd is useless anyway.

MattDakka wrote:
Stab is nice vs AV 7 or less players, but to use it you need to be in contact quite often, while a Runner doesn't have to be in contact so often, therefore his AV 7 should not be compared to an Assassin's AV 7.


lol...

AV7 is AV7 man, contact or not, that dude is getting blitzed down by most skilled coaches (unless they can hit a witch with a tackle player).
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 05, 2017 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

I can see two reasons to take a Runner on a DE team.

1: If you plan to get a Strip Ball, Leap, Wrestler on the team, then the Runner is your best candidate since MA is more useful than AV for that role.

2: If you want a good ball carrier, and all your Blitzers have failed rolling +AG or +ST then buying a Runner will give you a new shot at rolling +AG or +ST on a MA7 player. And if you fail this time as well, then you can still get a very good ballcarrier by taking passing skills on the Runner in order to make Dump-Off work well.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 00:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Oh lordy...

Another 'take passing skills' post.

*sigh*
Nextflux



Joined: Jan 22, 2008

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 00:14 Reply with quote Back to top

It doesn't matter what you take,it wount define your team as a winning team or a loosing team anyway. 1 runner for 1 line or whatever, do it, don't do it, wount matter that much anyway. sometimes the AV will help, sometimes the MA will help.
10K isnt exactly much to argue over, especially 6 pages.
Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 00:17 Reply with quote Back to top

I might be wrong on the thrower. It's one of those questions that are hard to judge. It's definitely worth it on offense if you don't have anything better to carry the ball and it's definitely worth it when 1-turning and 2-turning but it will handicap you a bit on defense. Maybe one less Side Stepper or something (and a AV for MA trade if we talk DE). Not much more than that though since passing skills also means he will skill up much faster so most of his collected skills will have been gained for free.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Sep 06, 2017 - 01:10 Reply with quote Back to top

Passing when you don't have to, no matter how many skills you took, will lose you games.

Also, passing is just part one. DE have no catchers, so really... yeah, more losing.
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