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Tricktickler



Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2017 - 15:44 Reply with quote Back to top

plasmoid wrote:
Either way, I think there is a huge difference between "flawed fluff" and "in no way relevant to the BB setting" - which is the problem with Simyans.

Yes, there is a difference and "flawed fluff" is much worse of the two.

There is nothing inherently bad in introducing new concepts (like new races) to existing fluff. It's something that's has been done over and over again in the history of warhammer and in other fantasy worlds as well.

Fluff that breaks the coherency of existing fluff however is the very essence of bad fluff. For example if halflings had ST6 even though they are described as very weak...

Quote:
I think Simyans could be reskinned as Tzeentch reasonably well, and that would help a lot.IMO.

Seriously...

If you want a Tzeentch team, then you create something new from scratch and do everything right from the beginning. You don't take an existing team that isn't even close to Tzeentch and call it Tzeentch.

No wonder the new teams have failed so much...
sann0638



Joined: Aug 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2017 - 17:51 Reply with quote Back to top

Would it be possible to create "Cyanide khorne" and "Cyanide brets"?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2017 - 18:00 Reply with quote Back to top

sann0638 wrote:
Would it be possible to create "Cyanide khorne" and "Cyanide brets"?


A lot of things are possible. But still, no one does them Wink

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sann0638



Joined: Aug 09, 2010

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2017 - 18:23 Reply with quote Back to top

Would be helpful for naf tournaments. If we asked nicely?

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2017 - 18:26 Reply with quote Back to top

sann0638 wrote:
Would be helpful for naf tournaments. If we asked nicely?


NAF tournaments are in the [L]eague division. You can do whatever you like.

You could go Full Monty Secret League if you wanted. Mr. Green

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2017 - 18:58 Reply with quote Back to top

It's a sad day when you realize the inmates are running the asylum.
c9805222



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Oct 25, 2017 - 19:25 Reply with quote Back to top

What was going through the designers head when they made that khorne roster. It's... laughable is the nicest way Timour it.
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 13:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi c9805222,
to be fair there were some fairly experienced (and previously succesful) roster designers involved, but Cyanide listed a number of Things that they couldn't do. AFAIK one of those was "M-access" presumably because mutations would need a lot of extra graphics Work.

To me, there are 5 (or 6) fluff issues with the Khorne team:
I like the 2 main themes: Super awesome big guy and kill with frenzy. However:

1. P access on the lineman makes no sense. Even if the Pact marauder has it. Khorne is not the team to have the option to build a passing game. More than anything it feels like a vehicle for Leader.
2. The Herald doesn't have Regeneration. If daemons (and bloodletters!) have regeneration, then so should a Herald. I mean, it's a bigger bloodletter.
3. The Bloodletter is just way too puny. I understand the argument that without the daemonic sword, the Bloodletter might become whimpy. I'm just not buing it.
4. I understand the need to have something without Frenzy on the roster. Or at least something that Blocks more reliably than ST3 frenzy. But that the Bloodletter is the player without Frenzy makes no sense.
5. Finally - the statline of the Thirster bears no semblance to what a Thirster is. It shouldn't be something about as strong as an Ogre. Bloodthirsters destroy entire teams. Or cities for that matter. Best keep them off the BB pitch.
6. Some people feel that Khorne linemen should have S access. Or M access. Personally, this doesn't bother me very much, as I'm happy with them being (very) low level minions/thugs.

Cheers
Martin
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 13:32 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi Tricktickler,
Quote:
Yes, there is a difference and "flawed fluff" is much worse of the two.

Different strokes I guess Question
I hope we agree that there is a sliding scale of how bad the fluff is, from something rather subjective (on facebook someone complained that Bret blitzers weren't called Cavaliers and Bret linemen weren't called Serfs), to something objectively jarring (like, as you say, ST6 halflings).
I find races completely unrelated to the setting to be at the bad end of that scale. But if you think LEGO rosters, spacemarine rosters and "Simyan" rosters to be perfectly fine, then fair play to you.

Quote:
If you want a Tzeentch team

I don't. And I don't particularly want a Simyan team either.
But if "people" lurve those stats, then a reskinning would be the only way to got those stats into that setting.

Cheers
Martin
plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 14:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi MattDakka,
Quote:
Therefore the NAF coaches don't care/don't know the fluff, because both teams don't represent properly the fluff.

Well, it's either that, or they find the fluff less horrible than you do.
Either way, that wasn't my point. My point was that you said that it was computer players voting, thereby hinting that 'what do computer gamers know about the warhammer World anyway'. But it wasn't computer players who voted. It was mainly tabletop players.

I'm sad that you and others so dislike the fluff behind my Bretonnian team, because I am someone who does care about fluff, and did consider a lot of Things when I designed the team. I was brought up on Warhammer Roleplay (not just WFB) and made choices that I was happy with. I didn't think my choices would be that controversial - but here we are Embarassed

My thinking was that Bretonnia isn't just about Knights in heavy armor and lance formation. But that the Bretonnian nobility would prefer a more flashy kind of Blood Bowl. One with 4 nobles trying to outshine eachother. That is not to say that I would be against them having S-access. In fact they did. But I didn't consider it to be mandatory and I ended up cutting it - and I'm still not quite sure if S-access would create a balance issue.

For the record I'm not thrilled with the Graphics/look of the team, in that they look much more military and knightly than I ever wanted them to be. The stats were designed without that look in mind.

Quote:
They are all about fighting and making heroic feats, and according to their chivalric code they can't use ranged weapons, therefore doesn't make sense they can be developed as quarterbacks, since passing is akin to using a sort of "ranged attack" to avoid the fights.

I don't agree that they are "all about fighting". They aren't beer swilling norsemen.
Heroic feats? That I agree on Smile

I do know and did consider the chivalric code. I've hard the argument before and did and still do (personally) consider it to be utter nonsense.
No disrespect meant, but to my fluff sensibilities it is the flimsiest stretch to argue that killing from a distance is like passing a ball. It's like saying they would only score after killing everyone, because scoring is "avoiding a fight". But they aren't Khorne. BTW Bretonnian nobles do use bows for hunting stags etc.

Cheers
Martin
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 14:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Lots of people who play table top own computers. Mr. Green

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plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 14:54 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi again MattDakka,
I won't be opening up a long discussion about the Bretonnian team, but I figure I might as well address the other most common criticism of my design:
That the team is really just a vehicle for the "new" skills. This was sort of mentioned by ArrestedDevelopment back on page one.

Yes, they did have extra appeal to me, because they were new at the time.
But I only ultimately selected those skills because they fitted what I was trying to do with the team.
I'm sure there are people who won't believe that no matter how many times I say it (I've been told as much), but if this was all about new skills then surely I would have put Juggernaut on the Blitzers.

My reasons were:
*With peasants I wanted a defensive skill.
Previous versions of the roster had used Dodge, but it was too good.
So Fend was the less good defensive skill.
It doesn't allow the peasant to avoid a beating but to escape after a beating.

*With the Yeomen/Squires I wanted a player who could serve his liege.
S-access let's him help with the bashing, while GS at the same time lets him help with getting the ball and potentially passing it.
However, I did not want this helper to become the main blitzer or main ball carrier, so I gave him wrestle to make him less useful for blitzing and less useful for ball carrying, while at the same time allowing him to sacrifice himself for his liege.

Now, if that design happens to also open someones eyes to the value of fend or wrestle (there are high profile people on FUMBBL who think that Fend sucks) then I'd consider that a bonus.

Cheers
Martin

PS - in all fairness I did consider Juggernaut, because I thought it was rather fluffy that the knights would have a skill that would trump the skill that peasants and yeomen had Very Happy. But I ended up going with the more Classic choice of Dauntless.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 15:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi plasmoid
plasmoid wrote:

My thinking was that Bretonnia isn't just about Knights in heavy armor and lance formation. But that the Bretonnian nobility would prefer a more flashy kind of Blood Bowl. One with 4 nobles trying to outshine eachother.

I agree that nobles would try to outshine each other, but I don't agree that they should compete by passing the ball.
I think they would compete by fighting the strongest opponent (i.e. Dauntless and S access), but Catch is a bit meh to be honest, although, if Squires have Kick-Off Return and Sure Hands, Catch makes more sense, because it's used to receive a hand off, rather than receiving a pass from another Knight.
Probably swapping Catch with Pro would be better for the synergy with Dauntless and to rr the odd hand off/pick up.

plasmoid wrote:
I don't agree that they are "all about fighting". They aren't beer swilling norsemen.
Heroic feats? That I agree on Smile

For fights I mean on the pitch and following the chivalric code, not brawling in a pub.

plasmoid wrote:
killing from a distance is like passing a ball.

It's not exactly the same thing (never said that), but by passing the ball you avoid to fight your way to the endzone. This is not how a Knight would show his skills, nor Knights used to compete with ranged weapons, moreover, wearing a plate armour doesn't make you a good quarterback, because it restrains the arm movements, if we want to nitpick. Throwers/Runners are generally less armoured than their teammates.
They used to joust to show their valour to the ladies, while they didn't make archery contests. The bow has always been a peasant weapon.
plasmoid wrote:
BTW Bretonnian nobles do use bows for hunting stags etc.

In WHFB army books (from 5th edition onwards) it's clearly explained that no Knight is allowed to use ranged weapons when fighting enemies, because they are not considered honourable weapons.
The peasants can use them because they are not bound to the chivalric code.

If you think your Bretonnians are fluffy fine, but I disagree and I explained why.

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plasmoid



Joined: Nov 03, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Hi MattDakka,
clearly you are not the only one who thinks that they are not fluffy, so I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm trying to explain my thinking behind the design.

Quote:
I think they would compete by fighting the strongest opponent

See, this is what reads as "Khorne" to me.
I think they would compete at being the one who won the game for the team.
I do like Pro for the team. My original team concept had it. But the feedback back then was that a starting player should never be a "pro". So I dropped that.

Quote:
It's not exactly the same thing (never said that), but by passing the ball you avoid to fight your way to the endzone.

No you don't. Someone has to catch it in the endzone Wink
I agree that a Bretonnian knight wouldn't shoot an enemy with a bow.
I don't think that translates to "kill everyone".
It's kind of like saying WFB Bretonnian knights could never head for a terrain-objective, but would always head for the nearest enemy. To me, that's Khorne.

Quote:
moreover, wearing a plate armour doesn't make you a good quarterback

Agreed. Like I said, I didn't want them to look like that. They look AV9. Not AV8 just like a human thrower.

I don't have any old WFB books anymore, but I believe hunting with bows is a common enough practice for Bretonnian nobles. AFAIK, bows aren't "illegal". You just shouldn't kill your enemy from a distance like a whimp. Then Again, you can't challenge s stag to a sword fight.
But Again - I agree that bows shouldn't be used for killing. I just disagree that that translates into "you shouldn't pass the ball into the EZ".

Cheers
Martin
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 26, 2017 - 16:40 Reply with quote Back to top

aren't we over thinking here?

If we want to be a slave to fluff then shouldn't all undead have nerves of steel? For how do zombies feel fear? And shouldn't all undead be immune to KO? How do you knock out something that isn't conscious. Why would witch's brew work on skeletons?

why are treemen movement 2, when they are 50% faster than humans?

Shouldn't vampires all die when "very sunny" comes up as weather? and why don't they decide to feed well before the game instead of during?

How does claw get to ignore platemail armor?

Why can a human blitzer in full metal armor run faster than a norse blitzer in none?

Why can a halfling intercept the ball just as well as a chaos warrior?

I agree you want to make rules and stats that have some sense, but please knock off the "knights wouldn't pick up the ball or throw to each other" BS. They want to win. Yes they will!

I like the new bret team as is because it showcases skills other teams do not, which is the whole point of developing new teams.

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