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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 18:26 Reply with quote Back to top

It's better to score with a Goblin than not score at all.
I didn't suggest to use the Goblin to score in every match, but that a Goblin may be useful to score in some situations.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 18:37 Reply with quote Back to top

The only way you're cycling your gobbos is if you are scoring with them though...

Or at least the only way you are doing it 'quickly'.

I still don't put much stock in those 'some situations' being particularly relevant. At least they are not when I play orcs. But that's a bit of a different argument, perhaps some coaches don't play orcs as well as I do Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 18:39 Reply with quote Back to top

You can nominate the MVP, no need to score.
Both Okostomi and Spartako use a Goblin, I would not dismiss them as bad Orc coaches.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 19:04 Reply with quote Back to top

Now you're throwing MVPs at gobbos?

Really, this thread has me weeping for humanity at this point.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 19:12 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

About Sneaky Git, as bghandras wrote: "Do not ever take Sneaky Git".
He made the calculations and his conclusion is that the skill is not worth it.


His calculations are #1 in error, as he compares apples to oranges. You cannot choose to not accept a skill increase on the dp. When he reaches 16spp, he's now double skilled, like it or not. Therefore the calc. need to be compared between sneaky git/dp vs dp and say block.

#2 His comparison doesn't take into account the full game effects, both tangible and intangible.

In short, the article is "fake news". (sorry bghandras)

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Last edited by Arktoris on Oct 10, 2017 - 19:15; edited 2 times in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 19:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Why not? If one of them has 1 SPP for a completion or 3 SPPs for a TD, why not?
You can't have an AG 4 or MA 7 Goblin if you don't skill him up.
Once your team is developed a bit you can afford to throw the odd MVP at a gobbo.
I checked, and for example Spartako nominated his Goblin:

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=885550

If you don't like to nominate a Goblin, you can just score 2 TDs, not so terrible, and Orcs are better at low-mid TV anyway, so there is no hurry to increase the TV a lot to face Clawmb teams.
Since you play Orcs very well, why don't you play in the Box to show us your superior gameplay?

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 19:18 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:

On a 12 man team, is it better to have 2 lineorcs over one orc and one goblin?


Yes. I don't recommend goblins on an orc team in early development. They should be player #14.

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Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 19:52 Reply with quote Back to top

SPP on goblin is definitely bad
MVP on goblin is definitely bad - very bad
Sneaky git is definitely bad

Occasionally they might score, only takes 2... But then recycle them regardless of the skill roll - A 60k sneaky goblin is worse than a 40k normal goblin. None of the stats are worth it.
A 70k dirty goblin is worse than a 40k normal goblin because it's nearly 2x the cost, or you could have a dirty lineorc for 70k instead
PurpleChest



Joined: Oct 25, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 20:47 Reply with quote Back to top

well i kicked a hornets nest here,

I stand by what I said. Gobbos are worth 40k. Lineorcs worth 50K.

Line Orcs are better, but gobbos have uses.

And I agree no skill/stat is worht it on a gobbo.

But they are worth 40K.

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Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 20:55 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:


And I agree no skill/stat is worht it on a gobbo.

But they are worth 40K.



even catch? A great skill to help score, TTM, and skill up other players with completions?

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 23:05 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Why not? If one of them has 1 SPP for a completion or 3 SPPs for a TD, why not?
You can't have an AG 4 or MA 7 Goblin if you don't skill him up.


The point is you are literally throwing those spp down the toilet by putting them on a goblin. Might as well just fire any player who gains a skill if you want to keep your TV below 1100 then.

If you want/need to develop your team (not all games are R or B) then you most certainly do not want to put SPP on recycled players, you want to put it on your actually good players.

MattDakka wrote:
Once your team is developed a bit you can afford to throw the odd MVP at a gobbo.
I checked, and for example Spartako nominated his Goblin:

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=885550


I have no idea if spartako is the greatest coach ever or not, but fine I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Still not that impressed with a 9/5/4 record for orcs. Not unimpressed, but meh, I'm guessing a lot of 'top coaches' can do that well with or without goblins.

The fact that he's been scoring TDs with the goblins (and throwers, puke) explains why that team looks kind of underdeveloped frankly. But that's neither here nor there, people have different goals for R or B and different ideas about what to play.

https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=796153

For example has a more impressive record and never used a goblin.

Not that arguing about their value based on how someone else has played their games is a basis for much. (for what it's worth though, that team also does not use a thrower, anymore...).

MattDakka wrote:
like to nominate a Goblin, you can just score 2 TDs, not so terrible,


The point isn't how hard it is to score with a goblin, the point is that you're NOT scoring with an actually important player. Your premise is different from others in that you are saying to recycle goblins until you get a stat, they are saying fire them as soon as they skill up no matter what. They are not feeding spp to the goblin, the goblin is just another option for them to use depending on the situation.


MattDakka wrote:
and Orcs are better at low-mid TV anyway, so there is no hurry to increase the TV a lot to face Clawmb teams.


That depends on the meta. For B sure, but more games are played in L and R anyway. And not developing your BoBs and a blitzer or two doesn't sound like a winning strategy either. We're not talking about NAF either I assume.


MattDakka wrote:
Since you play Orcs very well, why don't you play in the Box to show us your superior gameplay?


Box is dead when I play, can't prove anything even if I thought it were relevant to be able to.

I have played Orcs in L, and even used a goblin, though from his stat line you'd almost assume I didn't use him, probably because I almost never did, since he didn't seem to add much to the team.

I've played a fair amount of Orcs in BB2 as well, and, more importantly to me, I've played against a lot of Orcs there. The ones who run goblins are much easier to beat for some reason...
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 10, 2017 - 23:07 Reply with quote Back to top

PurpleChest wrote:
well i kicked a hornets nest here,

I stand by what I said. Gobbos are worth 40k. Lineorcs worth 50K.

Line Orcs are better, but gobbos have uses.

And I agree no skill/stat is worht it on a gobbo.

But they are worth 40K.


I'm fine with this. They are worth 40k to you and others. They are not to me.

Maybe we're both right.

Now we can move on to the value of the goblin on Pact teams Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 00:05 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:

The point is you are literally throwing those spp down the toilet by putting them on a goblin. Might as well just fire any player who gains a skill if you want to keep your TV below 1100 then.

If that Goblin gets AG 4 or MA 7 the SPPs are worth it. If not, not a tragedy, the team can still do fine even with that 3 or 5 SPPs loss.
licker wrote:

If you want/need to develop your team (not all games are R or B) then you most certainly do not want to put SPP on recycled players, you want to put it on your actually good players.

Once your players are skilled enough (the positionals have 3 skills or more) skilling up 1 Goblin could actually be an asset for your team, adding one extra tool to win a game.
licker wrote:
I have no idea if spartako is the greatest coach ever or not, but fine I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Still not that impressed with a 9/5/4 record for orcs. Not unimpressed, but meh, I'm guessing a lot of 'top coaches' can do that well with or without goblins.

Check his overall rating with Orc race in B:
CR 164.25
56/16/12
Win Percentage 76%
licker wrote:
But that's neither here nor there, people have different goals for R or B and different ideas about what to play.

But the point is, he wins and he uses a Goblin, if somebody who has 76% win rate with Orcs uses a Goblin maybe the Goblin is not utterly useless as you claim, that's the point, especially because I never said that all Orc teams must have a Goblin, but that the Goblin can be useful.
licker wrote:

The point isn't how hard it is to score with a goblin, the point is that you're NOT scoring with an actually important player.

And that makes a difference in the early stages of a team, once your players are skilled enough scoring from time to time with a Goblin will not hamper its development or winning chance.
I said that the Goblin is not a totally useless player, you can be successful without a Goblin, but he provides one extra possibility to win a game.
You are totally against the Goblin, I'm open to the possibility of playing with a Goblin, without implying that every Orc team must have a Goblin, on the other hand.

licker wrote:

That depends on the meta. For B sure, but more games are played in L and R anyway. And not developing your BoBs and a blitzer or two doesn't sound like a winning strategy either. We're not talking about NAF either I assume.

In League the possibility of developing clamb teams exists (although maybe seasons could slow down the development, I suppose).
licker wrote:
Box is dead when I play, can't prove anything even if I thought it were relevant to be able to.

You mean NA time? mrt1212, BillBrasky, jean-michel and sometimes smallman play during that time, and they are not the only ones, it's really unlucky that you can't find a game. The traffic is low but during NA time some games happen. Personally I find games during that period of time, although it's less likely than during Euro time, of course.

licker wrote:
I have played Orcs in L, and even used a goblin, though from his stat line you'd almost assume I didn't use him, probably because I almost never did, since he didn't seem to add much to the team.

I played without a Goblin and currently with a Goblin, I can see pros and cons, but I would not dismiss a Goblin as totally useless, especially if the team features a Troll. We could push that further and, if we are talking of L games, that you seem to love so much, I could say that at high TV, be it in B, R, L or whatever, having one Goblin does not bloat massively the team, yet adds an extra option to win a game for 40 TV.
licker wrote:
The ones who run goblins are much easier to beat for some reason...

Well, if you play vs Orc teams with 4 Goblins, I agree, but if you play vs an Orc team with 1 Goblin and you stall for 8 turns the team with the Goblin could score in one turn then win 2-1, while it's very unlikely you will be able to score in one turn without a Goblin, unless you have a stat freak Blitzer with MA 8.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 00:58 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

But the point is, he wins and he uses a Goblin, if somebody who has 76% win rate with Orcs uses a Goblin maybe the Goblin is not utterly useless as you claim, that's the point, especially because I never said that all Orc teams must have a Goblin, but that the Goblin can be useful.


So convenient for you to not quote the part where I showed he had a better orc team (record wise) that never used a goblin.

I never said a goblin will cause you to become terrible, most good (and maybe spartako is better than good) coaches can still win a lot of games with 'inferior' line ups, simply because they are better than 75% (or more) of their opponents anyway, and because a lot of those 'inferior' opponents are not going to be running an optimized team.

So the goblin 'can be useful'.

So can not having the goblin. There is a trade off, one I do not agree is obvious for using a goblin, but if you often find yourself needing to pray for a one turn with orcs I suppose the goblin is for you.

My larger question was really about why anyone would use a goblin as a fouler anyway. That's where I simply draw the line and will state that if that's your plan for the goblin you need to improve your skill level to where you can understand why that's not the reason, or even a reason, for having a goblin on an orc team.

You want a player who gives you more scoring options, fine. I'll continue to not play orcs in such a way as to need a goblin to score in the first place Wink
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 01:13 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:

So convenient for you to not quote the part where I showed he had a better orc team (record wise) that never used a goblin.

That team was from CRP (I checked, it was made before rules change).
Maybe with the MVP nomination using a Goblin is more appealing, or he wanted to just use a Goblin, the team he's currently using in the NAF EurOpen tournament has a Goblin:
https://fumbbl.com/p/team?id=886106
licker wrote:

I never said a goblin will cause you to become terrible, most good (and maybe spartako is better than good) coaches can still win a lot of games with 'inferior' line ups, simply because they are better than 75% (or more) of their opponents anyway, and because a lot of those 'inferior' opponents are not going to be running an optimized team.

So, do you think he's the kind of guy that plays with inferior line ups? He plays to win, the Thrower with Leader and 2 team rrs points in the optimization direction, and optimization suggests a competitive approach, not the will to play an "inferior" line up.
He doesn't play his NAF team to lose either.

licker wrote:

So the goblin 'can be useful'.
So can not having the goblin. There is a trade off, one I do not agree is obvious for using a goblin, but if you often find yourself needing to pray for a one turn with orcs I suppose the goblin is for you.

I don't think good coaches use a Goblin because they need to hope for 1TTD, but if they use him they must have a good reason, not just because they want to mess around with a "fun" roster.
Personally I don't rely on throwing the Goblin but it's the best bet to score in one turn for Orcs for sure.
About Goblin as fouler, I don't use him for fouling either, so here I agree with you.

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