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Poll
Hourly box activations?
Permantly change box to hourly activations
2%
 2%  [ 3 ]
Permantly change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
3%
 3%  [ 4 ]
Trial change box to hourly activations
3%
 3%  [ 4 ]
Trial change box to 30mins peak, hourly offpeak
24%
 24%  [ 25 ]
Change nothing
64%
 64%  [ 66 ]
Total Votes : 102


Mr_Foulscumm



Joined: Mar 05, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 18:30 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
licker wrote:
I've solved this problem a long time ago...


Making a suggestion is not the same thing as solving the problem.


Say what?! Shocked

Out of curiosity, what was the suggested solution?

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 18:42 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
licker wrote:
I've solved this problem a long time ago...


Making a suggestion is not the same thing as solving the problem.


Making a suggestion which solves the problem though...

Which is what I had.

Though, some people are confused about what the problem actually is.

To be clear, the problem is the inability to get games scheduled.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I guess I won't believe the issue is solved until I've seen it solved.

So what is the suggestion then? I had assumed that it was your usual one.

Or was it a joke?

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O[L]C 2016 Swiss! - April ---- All Stars - Anniversary Bowl - Teams of Stars - 13th March
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:19
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
To be clear, the problem is the inability to get games scheduled.


I disagree. Inability to get games scheduled would be a sign of a scheduler that is broken. The problem lies deeper than the scheduler.

Basically, the inability to get games is an effect of not enough people activating. Not enough people activating is an effect of people not wanting to play in the environment.

The next step is asking why people don't want to play in the blackbox, which is a much much harder question to answer.

I hear people say things like "monoactivators is the problem". This, in my opinion, is yet again uninsightful and not the actual problem. What they really mean is "I don't want to play against minmaxing killer teams", because I honestly doubt people would complain about someone monoactivating an elf team built for agile play, or stunties.

The blackbox was designed from the beginning to be a place where you don't get to pick who you play against. If anyone has any illusions that this means people will play "nice" and build their teams to be agile, they're simply being naïve.

I've seen a bunch of various suggestions for how to "fix" the division, and I'm honestly of two minds. Either I tell you guys to harden up and accept the division for what it is, or I try to come up with an *actual* fix that addresses the core problem: Bashy minmaxers.

If you cut through all the veiled complains about the box, *that*'s the issue we're talking about. Nothing else.

What would I do to fix it? I don't know honestly. A complete revamping of the division most likely. Maybe a seasonal system. This would involve a clearing of all existing B teams into R to begin with..

Then use either some variation of the official seasonal rules on the blackbox division (still using the same scheduler), or simply have an end-season thing where all teams are yet again moved over to R.

Would you still have killer teams? Certainly. Would you be able to minmax your teams long term? Not really.


Now, this would mean that the blackbox division would be *completely* different from what it is now. Am I convinced that it's a good idea? Not at all.

The honest truth is that there's a subset of coaches on the site who *enjoy* the blackbox environment. There are plenty of matches being played (and yes, I understand there's a problem during off-peak) on an aggregate level. If matches continue to decline, something will need to be done about it though.

In the end, the current blackbox is what coaches make of it.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:25 Reply with quote Back to top

@Christer: What about the old question of merging R & B? Is that just a case of "things are not yet bad enough"?

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Last edited by koadah on Oct 11, 2017 - 19:27; edited 1 time in total
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Moving all the teams to R at the end of the season would punish people like me that play a variety of races, don't cycle top tier 1 teams to rack easy wins, don't minmax and don't monoactivate.
If the minmaxers have to be punished then only them should be punished, not the whole division just to fix the minmax issue.
For example, imagine playing with a Vampire team.
You suck for several games to skill them up a bit, then at the end of the season they are moved to R.
At that point playing in the Box would be totally pointless for me, and playing in Ranked is against my ethics.


Last edited by MattDakka on Oct 11, 2017 - 19:31; edited 1 time in total
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:30 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Moving all the teams to R at the end of the season would punish people like me that play a variety of races, don't cycle tier 1 teams to rack easy wins, don't minmax and don't monoactivate.
If the minmaxers have to be punished then only them should be punished, not the whole division just to fix the minmax issue.


Moving all teams to [R] at the end of the season would be horrible. If people want to reset their teams they can do that now.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Yes, I don't want to play in Ranked, my soul would be tainted for the eternity.
The userbase is small, therefore it's easy to spot the minmaxers.
ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top

I hate playing vs massive elves as much as I do massive tv killers as underdog.
Mrt will attest to this, having heard me whine. Mav13sch too.

Basically I hatelosing. And the possibility of it. And bloodbowl.

Christer pls fix

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koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:38 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Yes, I don't want to play in Ranked, my soul would be tainted for the eternity.
The userbase is small, therefore it's easy to spot the minmaxers.


But would you accept being a 'pure scheduler' guy in [R]?

Would you need an option to only play vs other pure scheduler teams?

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:41 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment wrote:
I hate playing vs massive elves as much as I do massive tv killers as underdog.
Mrt will attest to this, having heard me whine. Mav13sch too.

Basically I hatelosing. And the possibility of it. And bloodbowl.

Christer pls fix


Play R ad, u can be just like s****, he*****, sw************* and the "others" and never taste a loss again!!!


Infinite winzzzzz zzzzz


Ps. Lol at doclystria's reply.

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MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:42 Reply with quote Back to top

koadah wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Yes, I don't want to play in Ranked, my soul would be tainted for the eternity.
The userbase is small, therefore it's easy to spot the minmaxers.


But would you accept being a 'pure scheduler' guy in [R]?

Would you need an option to only play vs other pure scheduler teams?

Yes, but the problem is, if the majority of the teams were not pure scheduler teams, as I guess, I would struggle to find a game.
Basically from struggling to find a game in B I would struggle to find a game in R.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:49 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
koadah wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
Yes, I don't want to play in Ranked, my soul would be tainted for the eternity.
The userbase is small, therefore it's easy to spot the minmaxers.


But would you accept being a 'pure scheduler' guy in [R]?

Would you need an option to only play vs other pure scheduler teams?

Yes, but the problem is, if the majority of the teams were not pure scheduler teams, as I guess, I would struggle to find a game.
Basically from struggling to find a game in B I would struggle to find a game in R.


Indeed. If you insisted on only playing vs other pure teams.

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licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 19:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
licker wrote:
To be clear, the problem is the inability to get games scheduled.


I disagree. Inability to get games scheduled would be a sign of a scheduler that is broken. The problem lies deeper than the scheduler.


Yes and no. The scheduler is 'broken' because it requires 4 teams (or 2 pairings) to work. That is a needles barrier in my opinion. Especially for NA players, but it's probably too late for that time zone anyway, the result of the atrophy is probably too much for it to really recover.

Without additional changes.

Christer wrote:
I hear people say things like "monoactivators is the problem". This, in my opinion, is yet again uninsightful and not the actual problem.


Well everyone can have their own opinion about what 'the problem' is. However, monoactivators are a clear problem in that they warp the meta to include only those teams you discuss later.

So, with that in mind, they are a significant problem, which can be 'easily' addressed by requiring people to activate more than one team, and, of course, forcing (people don't like that word, but they need to accept it frankly) the multiple activations to include a suite of different teams.

The traditional basher/baller/tweener mix can work for those categories, and throw the stunty guys a bone and let them activate only their stunty if that's what they want to play.

This would address the problem, and, more importantly, foster a different attitude towards what B should be. Certainly anyone is free to disagree with what B would become, but at this point, so what? There already are not many games being played, I don't really think there is any reason to defend the status quo. The people who don't like it already left, would they come back to something different? Some would, and some who only want the status quo would leave. The net change is unlikely to make things worse, especially if you accept that things are already pretty awful (time zone dependent to a degree).


Christer wrote:
The blackbox was designed from the beginning to be a place where you don't get to pick who you play against. If anyone has any illusions that this means people will play "nice" and build their teams to be agile, they're simply being naïve.


This is fine, but it may also be the reason why the box is (apparently) dying. Again, why cling to a failed definition? You certainly have the authority to change it.

Christer wrote:

Now, this would mean that the blackbox division would be *completely* different from what it is now. Am I convinced that it's a good idea? Not at all.


That is certainly your prerogative. It is everyone elses prerogative to continue not enjoying it and thus not playing in it.

Christer wrote:

In the end, the current blackbox is what coaches make of it.


But it's now what they actually MADE of it. There is no way to make it anything else without the hand of god Wink
Medon



Joined: Jan 28, 2015

Post   Posted: Oct 11, 2017 - 20:00 Reply with quote Back to top

Why is the time fixed at 15min? It might be more useful to keep the number of teams in the draw fixed. I.e. there will be a draw as soon as 6 teams are participating. This could take 5mins or 1hr depending on activity
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