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The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 10:50 Reply with quote Back to top

After 3 consecutive 'non-draws' with 4 coaches activating, I would make a humble suggestion to improve the number of Black Box games generated.

.. a small window below the 'Number of Activating Coaches' area. This box would pre-analyze the team's input into the draw, and it would simply say something like:

This draw will not currently produce any games.

It could be more specific as well. Maybe..
Due to the large TV gap between teams submitted, this draw will not currently produce any games.

This might encourage coaches to submit additional teams in the last minute of a draw.

To discourage gaming the system.. maybe this window only becomes active during the final 30 seconds before the draw, giving coaches just enough time to activate an additional team or two.

OR.. maybe this pre-analysis becomes IN-active during the final minute of the draw, so people don't pick and choose up to the last second.

The point being.. it gives mono-activators a heads up approx. 1 minute before the draw that they are wasting their time, and the next 15+ minutes when they could simply activate an extra team at a different range.

I'd like to hear ideas on how it could be gamed, and how that could be prevented.

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Last edited by The_Murker on Nov 09, 2017 - 11:44; edited 2 times in total
Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 11:12 Reply with quote Back to top

The_Murker wrote:

The point being.. it gives mono-activators a heads up approx. 1 minute before the draw that they are wasting their time, and the next 15+ minutes when they could simply activate an extra team at a different range.


*sigh*
Monoactivation does not bust a 4 coach draw. Monoactivated teams are usually older than 30 games and will play any team.
Only Rookie Protection can bust draws.

So, just tell the Trophy bunch to also activate an old team and you are safe.

Otherwise, it is a good idea. I personally would love to see the bot messages in the chat again; not sure if it works with discord though.
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 11:51 Reply with quote Back to top

What are you sighing at? Should everyone know what you know about the box scheduling system? You assume I am ignorant of rookie protection? You assume I imply mono-activators are the 'literal' reason games aren't scheduled, vice rookie protection?

You assume much with your sigh, and I find it condescending. Can't you sigh in your head?

It's a heads up to everyone, MOSTLY mono-activators, that there is something everyone could do to avoid 4 coaches missing out.

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Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 12:22 Reply with quote Back to top

I will try to sigh in my head more often. I did not want to insult you personally and beg for apology if I did.

The_Murker wrote:
Should everyone know what you know about the box scheduling system? You assume I am ignorant of rookie protection? You assume I imply mono-activators are the 'literal' reason games aren't scheduled, vice rookie protection?

No, no and yes.
You said in your OP that if coaches know a 4-man draw will fail, it is the monoactivator who can change his behavior to solve the problem. That is equal to saying it is his fault.

And it isn't.

What I am sighing at is that people who could, should and probably do know better (like you here) put a false stigma on monoactivators by wrongly putting the blame for the failed 4-coach draw on them. I fought that battle in a blog of ArrestedDevelopment before.
I wonder if some people just don't like monoactivation because it leads to more games with larger tv gaps, which they (i asume) dislike and try to make monoactivators the scapegoat for everything that they perceive as bad with the box, but that is just unfair.

Nobody needs to know anything about the scheduler as far as I am concerned. But if you blame people, your reasons should be correct.

I'm not at all sighing at a heads-up to everyone, on the contrary, I applaud your initiative and agreed with your idea too.
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 13:46
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I'm not at all opposed to the idea of having a "go/no go" type display. I am not likely to add more information than that though, as it's supposed to be a black box (in the sense of people not having detailed information) after all.

That being said, it's currently pretty complicated from a technical perspective for me to implement something like this. To the point that I have a rewrite of the blackbox scheduler planned in order to allow me to do changes to the system with reasonable effort.

Currently, it's running on a sad excuse of a back-end system on top of Java2EE, a choice I made long ago that seemed like a good idea back in the day but turned out to be a huge curse for development and deployment efficiency.

TL;DR - Good idea, not likely to happen any time soon for technical reasons. I want to spend my time on other things for the time being.
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 16:26 Reply with quote Back to top

Monoactivation is one problem, but not the monoactivators.

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Stevar



Joined: Oct 31, 2017

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 16:29 Reply with quote Back to top

I tried the draw twice today, once 3 coaches and once 4, neither produced result ( all my teams are TV1000 as I am starting).
So I second the idea. Because rookie teams need to play too before they can be matched with a higher TV diff, it is a deterrent to join black box.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 17:55 Reply with quote Back to top

bghandras wrote:
Monoactivation is one problem, but not the monoactivators.

Yes, monoactivation, since no TV gap cap is implemented, may create unfair matches.
Preventing great TV gaps would be nice, especially because the TV gap mismatch often punishes coaches who activate several teams (thus bringing more variety to the Box) and rewards the monoactivators who don't improve the variety of the Box and rack easy wins by exploiting the scheduler's flaw.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 18:02 Reply with quote Back to top

Monoactivators are a gift from Nuffle that puts people who manage their TV in their place.

"Wah, its so unfair that my 100 game team is playing against another 100 game team that is 500 TV above me! I should only get 30 game teams against my 100 game team at TV parity. Fair is Fair."
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 18:08 Reply with quote Back to top

Sometimes people don't manage their TV on purpose (like a certain Chaos Renegades coach), but they just lose players due to playing mismatches too often and their TV is decreased by the players' losses.
Mismatches like this:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3942303
and this:
https://fumbbl.com/p/match?id=3943174
2 mismatches in the last 3 matches played by my Lizardman team (30 games old so far, for the record, not 100 games old).
I'd like to increase the TV, but it's not that easy if I keep on playing mismatch after mismatch.
Maybe the scheduler matching will improve as the Box Trophy teams grow and get out of rookie protection.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 18:19 Reply with quote Back to top

Rawlf wrote:
I will try to sigh in my head more often. I did not want to insult you personally and beg for apology if I did.

The_Murker wrote:
Should everyone know what you know about the box scheduling system? You assume I am ignorant of rookie protection? You assume I imply mono-activators are the 'literal' reason games aren't scheduled, vice rookie protection?

No, no and yes.
You said in your OP that if coaches know a 4-man draw will fail, it is the monoactivator who can change his behavior to solve the problem. That is equal to saying it is his fault.

And it isn't.

What I am sighing at is that people who could, should and probably do know better (like you here) put a false stigma on monoactivators by wrongly putting the blame for the failed 4-coach draw on them. I fought that battle in a blog of ArrestedDevelopment before.
I wonder if some people just don't like monoactivation because it leads to more games with larger tv gaps, which they (i asume) dislike and try to make monoactivators the scapegoat for everything that they perceive as bad with the box, but that is just unfair.

Nobody needs to know anything about the scheduler as far as I am concerned. But if you blame people, your reasons should be correct.

I'm not at all sighing at a heads-up to everyone, on the contrary, I applaud your initiative and agreed with your idea too.


I mean, there's nothing wrong with monoactivating per se but there's also nothing wrong with people grumbling about you monoactivating either when the result is less games paired in total. Sure there isn't a way to really 'know know' who is at fault in any given failed activation but most of the failed activation with 4 coaches is the result of 1 coach among the 4 being the mismatched against the other teams. And it stands to reason that most the time that 3 on 1 mismatch is 1 high TV (since long lived coaches want to play their long lived teams) and 3 low TV or rookies.

Some people dislike monoactivations because of the TV gaps, some dislike them because they result in less games being paired, some dislike them because they want to get a variety of teams to play against and not eat the stale biscuits you're selling. Bottom line, only the less games paired complaint matters from a community standpoint. Monoactivators, as I said above, are a foil against coaches that want to have a team advantage at TV parity through the longevity of their own team. They aren't completely useless, but they're pretty useless for just getting a pickup game going.
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 18:32 Reply with quote Back to top

The problem is that you are not recruiting enough multi or mono activators.

People monoactivate young teams too.

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JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 09, 2017 - 18:43 Reply with quote Back to top

@Rawlf, you can't tell coaches who joined Box to hunt the trophy, "just activate your high TV teams, you'll be fine," because they don't necessarily have any high TV teams.

If you want to grow the Box, the ball is in the monoactivators' court.

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Rawlf



Joined: Jul 15, 2007

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2017 - 09:42 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

I mean, there's nothing wrong with monoactivating per se but there's also nothing wrong with people grumbling about you monoactivating either when the result is less games paired in total.

...

Bottom line, only the less games paired complaint matters from a community standpoint.


This is precisely why I sighed. You are a very knowledgeable coach and still keep spreading this untrue statement.

Monoactivation does NOT reduce the number of pairings.
Only the rookie protection system can lead to a 4 coach draw failing.

This is not up to debate, it is not a moral thing. It is a simple, technical fact easily understood if you look at how the scheduler works. The box algorithm completely disregards the number of teams activated by a coach. And a monoactivated old team can play vs every other team, it can always be paired with everyone. Only a coach exclusively activating rookie protected teams is at risk of not finding a possible match.

Blaming people unrelated to ones problem is unfair.
An example to illustrate what I mean:

I, Rawlf, have a problem. I am broke, no money.
Reason is I dont work and spend all I have on booze.
Blame goes to mrt1212 who refuses to give me all his money. If he did, there was no problem.

Silly, right? Wink


@JackassRampant, your point is technically true, but looking at who is playing in the Trophy I promise you that every time a draw with 3 Trophy coaches and 1 evil monovator happens, at least one of the Trophy coaches has a long list of old box teams.

And if you want to grow the Box, you need more coaches and less witchhunts.
kummo



Joined: Mar 29, 2016

Post   Posted: Nov 10, 2017 - 09:52 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="Rawlf"]
mrt1212 wrote:

Monoactivation does NOT reduce the number of pairings.
Only the rookie protection system can lead to a 4 coach draw failing.


Umm.. i am not 100% sure how box does things but lets say there is a busted team with 40 games but only 1200 tv.. and 3 teams that are 2000 tv... 4 coaches, each one monoactivating.

No rookie protection.

But wouldn't the TV difference be too much for game to get scheduled?

I think i've heard suggestion for activating teams with different tv's to maximize odds to get drawn. Does that suggestion only help when there are odd number of activators or does it actually make the draw also more likely to happen?

edit: surely rookie protection is also a factor and might be mostly the reason for draw not to happen but is it really the only reason ever?
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