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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:17 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
You don't care if I believe you or not while you simultaneously find all other opinions unconvincing. Nobody has ever accused you of lacking arrogance, have they?


Have you even expressed an opinion beyond 'it's better to kick'?


I did and you didn't read or respond to it so...


I did, I said it was for chumps.

But the thing is, your logic is completely flawed. All I have to do is say do you want to play up 1-0 or tied 0-0.

And you will retort with...

Nothing. Because there really isn't a retort.


Ah, so you're also a sophist, creating a specific and limited argument that is internally consistent but only because it ignores integral factors and have importance on the question.

I can play up 1-0 by kicking first and going on defense. Kind of what I'm good at in my estimation. Kind of the whole point of why I play elves - because I can win a game entirely by playing good defense and only putting in 3 turns on offense.

Maybe this is a bit basic for you to understand but did you know you can score defensive TDs?


Last edited by mrt1212 on Nov 17, 2017 - 00:22; edited 1 time in total
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:20 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
licker wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
You don't care if I believe you or not while you simultaneously find all other opinions unconvincing. Nobody has ever accused you of lacking arrogance, have they?


Have you even expressed an opinion beyond 'it's better to kick'?


I did and you didn't read or respond to it so...


I did, I said it was for chumps.

But the thing is, your logic is completely flawed. All I have to do is say do you want to play up 1-0 or tied 0-0.

And you will retort with...

Nothing. Because there really isn't a retort.


Ah, so you're also a sophist, creating a specific and limited argument that is internally consistent but only because it ignores integral factors and have importance on the question.

I can play up 1-0 by kicking first. Kind of what I'm good at.


Then you have utterly missed the point.

If you're that good at being 1-0 playing defense, you would be up 2-0 by receiving first.

All of these 'integral factors' you think I have ignored simply are not relevant, if you are able to understand the premise.

Get the ball. Score in 2 turns. Defend as though you kicked first.

What part of that mystifies you so that you think there are 'integral factors which have importance on the question' that are different between scoring in 2 turns and then kicking vs. just kicking?
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:24 Reply with quote Back to top

That's how you think it works? That nothing happens on that 2 turn offensive drive that might impact or change how your defense works? Or that you have some OTTD mechanism that allows a more aggressive tack by kicking first since you're guaranteed to get the OTTD attempt in doing so? Must be nice to whoop on people in BB2 I guess.
morehouse



Joined: Sep 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Well I kick first every chance with my Wood Elves and they are 36-4-3 right now so I think that puts me above "chump."

A few reasons....

1. The standard defend with your full team is nice. Licker you mentioned something along the lines of scoring fast and then defending with a full team. This is true but when people say that they are talking about the second half generally. If you score in 2, then get bashed for 6 turns, then set up to kick again, you will not be defending with your full team in the second half very often. This is the crucial drive of the game as the basher has the full 8 turns and so a lot of people don't want to give them the head start on their offense of having you down players.

2. The pressure factor. You can't lose the game on defense, as the offense is "expected" to score. You can lose the game on offense with a mistake. I generally expect my opponents to be more nervous than I am and more worried about losing the ball, so I want to exploit that immediately. It happens quite often that an opening kick blitz or perfect defense or failed pick up, etc. causes players to just tilt and the game is virtually over before I even move a piece.

3. The most important factor in really high level games, is information and control. Think of the reason that college football teams always play defense first in overtime. They want to know how many points they need before they get the ball. In blood bowl, when on offense you should be controlling the pace. It is much better to make your pacing decision when you already know how the defensive half went. If I am down 1-0, I will play my offense faster than if I am up 2-0, etc.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:28 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Do you want to play for the best chance at being up 1-0 or not?

If you play your elfs to score in 2 turns (which isn't necessary, but let's just say you do it) then you have suffered exactly one blitz and are defending a 1-0 score with a full 11 (less whatever that one blitz caused).

How is it ever better to defend 0-0 than 1-0? In either case, lets assume your defense is successful. Now you go into the 2nd half either up 1-0 or tied. Who is getting the ball is different, but really, you'd rather be playing at 0-0 having taken a full 8 turns of bash against your team rather than up 1-0? Reasonable case scenarios for both are the opponent still scoring once, and you still scoring once. Congratulations, you're busy playing for a 1-1 draw, I'm trying to play for a 2-1 win.
(Ignoring all the personal bickering...) ^This.
keggiemckill



Joined: Oct 07, 2004

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Sometimes I kick first and sometimes I punch first. Either way I aim for the groin.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Is this or that or some specific thing OVERRATED is a very subjective question?

Is Messi overrated? Was Jordan overrated? Is Sex overrated?

The answer of course to any question asking if something is overrated the answer is always... ask me a real question.
Because of course... some people think Messi, or Jordan, or Sex, or kicking with Elves is the unquestionable greatest thing in the whole world... and because they over-value such things they are of course OVERRATED.
And of course... some people undervalue how great these things, or people, are... and if there are bein under-valued they are of course NOT overrated.

However, the distorted opinions of people overhype or undercut the greatness of these people, or things, does not diminish their greatness. Therefore asking if they are OVERRATED is really a meaningless question that cannot really be answered.
Because even IF Messi is the greatest player of his time... he can be BOTH OVERRATED and underrated and respected accordingly. Those subjective opinions do not alter the value of him as a player NOR do they value the strategic choice of choosing KICK when you are playing Elves in Blood Bowl.

A more APT question that solicits the answer you are actually seeking would be...
"Is Kicking with Elves the Best strategic choice to start a game? Why or why not?"
And the answer to that question is "Generally speaking... YES. But not always"
But I am not going to get into the why and why not.
Craftnburn



Joined: Jul 29, 2005

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:33 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Get the ball. Score in 2 turns. Defend as though you kicked first.
And ^This too.

morehouse wrote:
Well I kick first every chance with my Wood Elves and they are 36-4-3 right now so I think that puts me above "chump."
Wardancers are built for Defense, so I can see the argument here. HE, EU, DE, not so much.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:35 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
That's how you think it works? That nothing happens on that 2 turn offensive drive that might impact or change how your defense works? Or that you have some OTTD mechanism that allows a more aggressive tack by kicking first since you're guaranteed to get the OTTD attempt in doing so? Must be nice to whoop on people in BB2 I guess.


Who the hell is talking about a OTTD?

Not me.

And part of the premise of the 'kick first' is that elfs can score 'easily' down players in the 2nd half too. So really, are you struggling that much to score with elfs when you have a full 11?

You can also stall more effectively with a full 11, which is why I don't say to blindly score ASAP (though it's not really a problem if you do), but rather play your offense to be able to score and then stall as much as is 'safe'.

You still are unable to answer the actual question though. I mean I know you can't, no one can, because there is no answer to why kicking first is superior.


Last edited by licker on Nov 17, 2017 - 00:44; edited 1 time in total
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:43 Reply with quote Back to top

morehouse wrote:

1. The standard defend with your full team is nice. Licker you mentioned something along the lines of scoring fast and then defending with a full team. This is true but when people say that they are talking about the second half generally. If you score in 2, then get bashed for 6 turns, then set up to kick again, you will not be defending with your full team in the second half very often. This is the crucial drive of the game as the basher has the full 8 turns and so a lot of people don't want to give them the head start on their offense of having you down players.


So you instead kick first and are down players in the 2nd half because you gave a full 8 turns in the first half to get beaten up. Oh, you're probably also down 1-0 if the other team did actually beat you to hell.

But even if you are not, and you left the score at 0-0, you are still down players and trying to run your offense to stall it out is more problematic at winding up actually losing the ball because you think you need to stall, so you are still playing for a 1-1 most of the time.

morehouse wrote:

2. The pressure factor. You can't lose the game on defense, as the offense is "expected" to score. You can lose the game on offense with a mistake. I generally expect my opponents to be more nervous than I am and more worried about losing the ball, so I want to exploit that immediately. It happens quite often that an opening kick blitz or perfect defense or failed pick up, etc. causes players to just tilt and the game is virtually over before I even move a piece.


So you leverage the fact that your opponents are bad? That's hardly an argument for any position.

But even accepting this. Why is it still better to play defense at 0-0 than at 1-0? There is simply no logic to explain that.


morehouse wrote:
3. The most important factor in really high level games, is information and control. Think of the reason that college football teams always play defense first in overtime. They want to know how many points they need before they get the ball. In blood bowl, when on offense you should be controlling the pace. It is much better to make your pacing decision when you already know how the defensive half went. If I am down 1-0, I will play my offense faster than if I am up 2-0, etc.


Well golly gee, imagine you are your opponent now, and they have to play differently because they are the ones down 1-0 and so their offense is that much more important since they know if they don't score this half they have to score 2 times in the second half, and if they score too quickly you might still make it 2-1 in this half.

Really, I know you think you're arguing a benefit of kicking first, but think about it from the other point of view and then explain why you'd prefer to be down by one rather than tied.

Also, a comparison to college football would be more apt if you could score anything other than 'ONE' in blood bowl, or if you could run the clock out on your overtime attempt and leave the other team with only 2 plays to score, or, even just remove half of their team and watch them try to score with 6 players vs. 11.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:45 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:


A more APT question that solicits the answer you are actually seeking would be...
"Is Kicking with Elves the Best strategic choice to start a game? Why or why not?"
And the answer to that question is "Generally speaking... YES. But not always"
But I am not going to get into the why and why not.


Well you're wrong, but hell, feel free to not get into it Wink
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 00:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Licker... I miss the days when you had a Chupacabra as your picture.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 01:00 Reply with quote Back to top

licker wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:


A more APT question that solicits the answer you are actually seeking would be...
"Is Kicking with Elves the Best strategic choice to start a game? Why or why not?"
And the answer to that question is "Generally speaking... YES. But not always"
But I am not going to get into the why and why not.


Well you're wrong, but hell, feel free to not get into it Wink


I like to use BOTH strategies with Elves or almost any other team really depending on what I am facing and how I feel like using my team. And also sometimes based on my opponents experience level, or skill level, or certain types of specific players my opponent might have.

But I probably RECEIVE more than 50% of the time. Perhaps that is because when I lose the toss most opponents choose to KICK. idk
Facing the classic 2-1 Grind just requires you to know how to COUNTER the Classic 2-1 Grind. And there are multiple ways to do it. My favorite is to win 3-0 or 3-1... but that isn't always the best way to go.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 01:14 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
That's how you think it works? That nothing happens on that 2 turn offensive drive that might impact or change how your defense works? Or that you have some OTTD mechanism that allows a more aggressive tack by kicking first since you're guaranteed to get the OTTD attempt in doing so? Must be nice to whoop on people in BB2 I guess.


In general with Elves you can always score in 2 turns unless the Defense sells out too much to specifically stop that 2 turn score. And if you have run your offense right... you can just score easily on the 3rd turn... or the 4th turn.
And if the defense has been able to make your attempt to score by turn 4 too risky you are already 1/2 through with an 1st Half Stall. And again, if you have set up correctly on offense... and you have lost less that 2 players at this point you should now be able to score at least 2 ways at any moment... and working on a 3rd way to score.

Now keep in mind... what I am describing is in facing a defense of Bashers focused on trying to stop an Elf Score. To actually do that (stop an Elf score) those Bashers can't be getting any serious pressure on the BALL until at least turn 5 (or maybe turn 4 if you have lost too many players).

If you are scoring turn 5 or later... and you still have most of your Elves... and you have a solid sacker... you ought to be able to steal the ball or at least hold off the bashers.
Elves if played be an above average coach should WIN so long as you don't roll too many 1's and your AV holds.

The 1 time I would DEFINITELY Kick 1st is if I have a 1 Turner that I can afford to keep on the Bench. The rest of the time... it matters who you will face and HOW you will CHOOSE to make your opponents players look like clowns with your superior Agility and Speed.

EDIT: Actually... maybe I would Receive with a 1 Turner... lead 1-0 after only 1 turn... then Kick and give myself 8 turns to steal the ball and score again.
Or not. idk.
I generally consider using a designed 1 Turner cheating so I USUALLY don't do build one. But I think it is probably fair for Skaven. idk.
I'd should think this through more, probably.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 01:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:

The 1 time I would DEFINITELY Kick 1st is if I have a 1 Turner that I can afford to keep on the Bench. The rest of the time... it matters who you will face and HOW you will CHOOSE to make your opponents players look like clowns with your superior Agility and Speed.


This is the one exception. when you have a one turner (best to be natural, else match up dependent you can't always get the pushes, and your opponent can set up superior anti-one turn defenses).

However, if you have a deep enough bench (which you probably don't have often) you can still receive first. Else you really do want to kick first to keep the one turner on the bench so you will have him for turn 8. With a bench you can risk it for having him for turn 16 instead.

I think this is mrts argument, that you have a one turner. The problem is that you don't always have a one turner, and basically you want/need a one push or less one turner to make the attempt reasonable.

Else, you are much better off going for the 2 turn with a full team. If the opposition plays it poorly you can advance the ball to the goal line and do the safe stall for as long as you are able. WE do this the best because with all that speed you can more easily flood the back field and do a set of screens in depth to prolong the stall attempt.

Or, you can just score on turn 2 and ensure that you'll have your 11 for defense (less the one blitz you face).
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