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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 07:12 Reply with quote Back to top

You were hot dogging it in anti Belichick way! Wink this is why everyone needs to narrate their games when they play, for these exact situations. And yeah that was a remarkably bad season first half of the season for you 0-1-6
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 07:18 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
You were hot dogging it in anti Belichick way! Wink this is why everyone needs to narrate their games when they play, for these exact situations. And yeah that was a remarkably bad season first half of the season for you 0-1-6


Ahh, that might explain it then. Probably just playing it out trying to keep anyone interesting from getting fouled to death. I remember that season vaguely, just a bunch of missed opportunities and bad luck early on left me playing for a high draft pick.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 09:20 Reply with quote Back to top

This has been interesting but feels unresolved

Is there any hard data available, with lots of samples?
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 09:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Even if there was it would be very difficult to interpret.
bancobat



Joined: Aug 25, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 11:18 Reply with quote Back to top

I mostly play wood elves and delves in box, facing a lot of bashing teams
For me it depends on 2 main factors : your bench and your ability to ball control
With a small bench I prefer to receive, if not the 4 free blocks can really put you outnumbered for the whole game, making the game 1-0 at half if you have not an OTT, you can’t stall because you have few players so you leave to your opponent several turns for the 2-1 win.
With a large bench you can kick, being offensive on the defence to force the defensive TD, then lead 2-0 on your drive and the game is won
If you can’t score on defense, you will still be at 1-1 with an other good chance of defense TD cause you still have players, or just play the draw
The second main point for me is the ball control, if your team is able to play an 7-8 turns TD, then receive, lead 1-0 at half, force your opponent to score and you will still have your 2 turns to score the winning TD, even with few players.
If you are a 2 turns TD player, kick, because receiving will put you on a 1-2 loss path, even if you are a good defender.
This apply mostly against bashhier teams (aka almost all teams) but against agility team or some others teams like khemri or lizardmen, I may be tempted to kick, because the possibility of a defensive TD is higher.
In conclusion, just adapt to your opponent capability to bash you and your ability to score defensively.
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 11:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Good points. Also, always kick against Wood Elves, Vampires and Slann, with any team.
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 11:32 Reply with quote Back to top

So many great statements to choose from, like this one..

"As I explained, it doesn't matter where your data is coming from so long as it is measured consistently. "

There is a really great episode of Seinfeld where Kramer is telling Jerry how fast he is progressing up through the ranks in his sparring Karate class, being the favored student in a very short time. Jerry and the gang seem impressed. Later in the episode we find out Kramer is sparring with, and destroying, 8 year old children.

According to Licker, any internal data Kramer was collecting about the effectiveness of one Karate attack over another was totally valid, with regards to being a good fighter. Really, bud, he was just collecting data on how to best give nose bleeds to children, not fight. You see that, right?

Hey Kramer, we're trying to tell you that your experience over on BB2 might not be the best guide for deciding you get to state laws about how to compete at a high level with elves.

One of the most amusingly sad things is someone who states he knows something as fact, despite a large number of competent people surrounding him telling him his assertion might not be a fact, that his reasoning, however clear it seems to him, can be argued with, and then watching that person talk down to everyone else like they are ignorant.

Sadly amusing.

As to the OP, scoring fast and then kicking the ball to a well-put-together ork team on turn 3 is dumb. I'm not surprised Kramer would do it, not at all, even have success with it on BB2, but on FUMBBL it is dumb.

The orks will get the ball twice, and smash you for 13 straight turns, scoring once or twice in the process. Welcome to the UFC, Kramer.

Additionally, there is a higher level concept here that seems to escape Kramer. Anyone truley confident in his ability to score in 2 or 3 turns dosen't actually have to stop the offense from scoring. Quite the opposite. You can just let the enemy hold the ball nicely for you for 5 turns with zero risk, protect your best players, and THEN decide if you want to force him to score, or attempt to stop the enemy TD. In the meantime, the opposition might gladly score an easy TD as you howl with laughter, or you might see an opportunity to split his forces in two, forcing that score or stealing the ball if he dosn't respond well.

Advanced, I know, buddy. Maybe you could take baby steps with the concept over on BB2, or is it all just bash there?

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Last edited by The_Murker on Nov 17, 2017 - 15:30; edited 1 time in total
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 12:28 Reply with quote Back to top

I don’t know that we should go down the rabbit hole of ‘us > BB2, smash those n00bs however you like, it’s different here in the big leagues’ when discussing strategic concepts. It may be convenient as a FUMBBList to think that way, but I’ve seen enough evidence to suggest there are high level players that have come up via that format, just like they have via TT or FUMBBL, and plenty of the best players play across formats anyway. I like to think I can spot a good player, so I hope you can take my word that they do exist outside of this website!

I subscribe to the ‘if you want to win with Elves / Vampires / Slann, kick, if you want to not lose, receive’ opinion, but it’s okay other views are available and some good coaches think that you should always receive first. Perhaps opinions are influenced by preferred environment? The Ghoul bloat discussion over in another thread was interesting in part because in some cases, the opinions shared betrayed favoured BB environment. Perhaps Licker’s theory (receive, score, then get them on D) is something to do with his passion for the ‘rule of five’ style of team management. If you’ve got a load of fodder and five stars, maybe a really explosive start and an unassailable 2-0 in five turns is a more reliable strategy than trying to win ‘traditionally’ in 16?

Anyway. All good fun. It is OK for other people to think other things. Wink
The_Murker



Joined: Jan 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 12:56 Reply with quote Back to top

No, if licker is so certain he is right, that recieving is the law, then it's fair play for anyone else to be certain that hundreds of BB2 coaches are all crap. All of them.

Offensive, isn't it? Such is the nature of certainty.

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Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 13:04 Reply with quote Back to top

I think portraying uber certainty is just part of the nature of forum chat, but I see your point. Wink

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Nextflux



Joined: Jan 22, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 13:25 Reply with quote Back to top

A problem arises while discussing in forums, some even claim to know the absolute truth. witch in itself is quite flawed. ITs like talking to religious fanatics.

Others take a slightly lower aim. The problem with this is; someone might criticize you.
Sometimes they might be right in their critic, sometimes not. Still its hard not to defend your original position, and escalation begins, because few is willing to back down.
What annoys me most is the people who claim to know the truth and all others must be ignorant, because its not a discussion anymore, the problem is not solved, instead it becomes a contest of rhetorics and its all about winning the argument, rather than answering the question.

so to the actual question: is kicking with an agility team overrated?
Simple answer is just NO
I hope people would abstain for calling me a chump or similar, just because I have this position, remember it was a simple answer, I can discuss hundreds of reasons, still I can be wrong, though kicking works, so I cant be wrong at the same time.
DrPoods



Joined: Nov 14, 2013

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 13:43 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Catalyst32 wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Horning in on my business Catalyst!


Haha... Which League are you running?

But seriously... we have had lots of crossover coaches from your leagues to mine. I've probably been in one of your leagues before.
These days I am too busy to be in more than 1 League and since I am 1 of the main Admins over at NWL I figure it is best that I play in that one only for now.

Anyways... we offer something DIFFERENT from the other Leagues. But our old model got kinda stale. So we are open to suggestions and changes. But we don't intend to be a 2nd league that is styled after the NFL or College Themed. But a coach CAN name their team any theme they want... so they can be a version of any NFL or College team in the NWL.
The way we are trying to offer a different experience is via a different structure. Which we WERE achieving by having an EASTERN Division and a WESTERN Division... which seemed to bring in some Coaches for a while.

But anyway...
A CHALLENGE!!! PROVE IT!!! Blah blah-blah!!!


I'm running the NBFL now! We got Poods...maybe an exchange program can be arranged Wink


Hey! Surprised

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Endzone



Joined: Apr 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 14:56 Reply with quote Back to top

What I like best in the 'to kick or not to kick debate' for the bash v agility match up, are coaches who say it's best to kick with the agility team but best to receive with the bash team, not spotting the contradiction!
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 16:15 Reply with quote Back to top

Endzone wrote:
What I like best in the 'to kick or not to kick debate' for the bash v agility match up, are coaches who say it's best to kick with the agility team but best to receive with the bash team, not spotting the contradiction!


I'm not sure anyone is saying that directly, but it is a piece people need to consider.

One can break it down into 3 different broad categories, AG vs AG, Bash vs Bash, and AG vs Bash.

However, the OP was asking specifically about AG teams, so for the purposes of this thread we could ignore the Bash vs Bash anyway, but that may be the clearest of them all in terms of always receiving as the alpha strike is what many of those teams are after.

Anyway, I would guess the 'always kick' crowd will do that with any team in the AG matchup sets. Because they believe that giving the AG team the ball first is worse for the AG team, and thus better for the Bash team.

It becomes a question of playing to your opponents weakness vs. playing to your strength.

It's sort of the 'reactive' vs. 'proactive' argument. Typically, with evenly matched teams and coaches, you do not want to be the 'reactive' one, because you are then basically relying on a mistake or bad dice to win.
licker



Joined: Jul 10, 2009

Post   Posted: Nov 17, 2017 - 16:24 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
I don’t know that we should go down the rabbit hole of ‘us > BB2, smash those n00bs however you like, it’s different here in the big leagues’ when discussing strategic concepts. It may be convenient as a FUMBBList to think that way, but I’ve seen enough evidence to suggest there are high level players that have come up via that format, just like they have via TT or FUMBBL, and plenty of the best players play across formats anyway. I like to think I can spot a good player, so I hope you can take my word that they do exist outside of this website!


Of course they do. It took me leaving fumbbl to realize this, but aside from the casual snark, the fact that many fumbbl coaches have this bizarre superiority complex has made me less interested in staying here.

Purplegoo wrote:
I subscribe to the ‘if you want to win with Elves / Vampires / Slann, kick, if you want to not lose, receive’ opinion, but it’s okay other views are available and some good coaches think that you should always receive first. Perhaps opinions are influenced by preferred environment? The Ghoul bloat discussion over in another thread was interesting in part because in some cases, the opinions shared betrayed favoured BB environment. Perhaps Licker’s theory (receive, score, then get them on D) is something to do with his passion for the ‘rule of five’ style of team management. If you’ve got a load of fodder and five stars, maybe a really explosive start and an unassailable 2-0 in five turns is a more reliable strategy than trying to win ‘traditionally’ in 16?


I have no passion for the rule of five, it's simply not a part of my team building plan, nor my in game tactics. It's just simple logic that being up 2-0 means you are incredibly likely to win (and even preserve your team). And being up 1-0 means you are more likely to not lose, but also probably win.

So, in order to get to 2-0, you have to first get to 1-0. Kicking first makes getting to 1-0 less likely. Because, again, if you are such a pro at stealing the ball and scoring anyway, why would you not want to steal the ball and score when you are already ahead?

Purplegoo wrote:
Anyway. All good fun. It is OK for other people to think other things. Wink


It is good fun, other than a couple people here who seem to want to throw insults my way, I think it's just a spirited discussion. And where's the fun in just agreeing with everyone and saying 'but in some cases...'. Since in this particular discussion, the people who think other things are being illogical Wink
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