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Poll
Dark Elf runners yay or nay?
Yes - Strictly runners
35%
 35%  [ 22 ]
Yes - Passers
19%
 19%  [ 12 ]
Never - More AV7 sucks
38%
 38%  [ 24 ]
Pie!
6%
 6%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 62


delusional



Joined: Jan 18, 2013

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 06:23 Reply with quote Back to top

JellyBelly wrote:
The assassin though is total garbage. I would never take an assassin. Stab is pretty bad and Shadowing with MA6 is just ... yuck!

He puts the 'ass' in assassin. Two of them, in fact! xD


Yea, I think they need like "shadowing & +2 to shadowing skill" or something. As MV6, the shadowing is near useless vs the Catchers, etc.

Stab though comes into it's own if you can combine it with multiblock, which I know that other bb client we wont name allows (or did allow). Because Multiblock means 2x attacks, usually one opponent will fall. This negates the no fall if no armor broken setback a fair bit with stab.

Still this MV6 av7 positional isn't worth it.
a "runner" IMHO is because "leader" on a normal roll is worth it and you can save your doubles for another skill 'ie guard'.

Lastly DUMP OFF is blood bowl FUN. Maybe stat wise it isn't worth it, I think it is because you have placed a big ??? on the opposition teams tactics and possibly stopped a blitz on your ball carrier. Even if you do mark all receivers, ag4 -1 to catch is still good, even if the ball isn't caught it's probably around one of your players and the other team have just moved their players up. Hey if they do a 1db block against your runner, you don't have to use dumpoff and you can risk the tackle but they are doing a 1db block because you have dumpoff! (which if they don't have strip ball, you have a 50% chance of holding onto the ball. add block 66% chance).

All that's not the point. Dumpoff is fun! you create this weird scenario where the opposing coach goes "OMG what do I do". THATS FUN! Even if it doesn't work, getting the comments on chat are worth it.

(BTW anyone remember how dumpoff works with Fend)?
Malmir



Joined: May 20, 2008

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 08:06 Reply with quote Back to top

I just like the runner/s because I now have two extra move 7 players on the field. If they get taken out then they do, but until then the biggest weakness of dark elves (lack of pace) is countered somewhat. Also, if they don't get stats then having accurate on one for emergency passing can be useful too.
Loew



Joined: Feb 02, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 10:12 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:


Stab though comes into it's own if you can combine it with multiblock, which I know that other bb client we wont name allows (or did allow). Because Multiblock means 2x attacks, usually one opponent will fall. This negates the no fall if no armor broken setback a fair bit with stab.



sitenote: stab + multiblock works in "our" client and yes, it is very cool (but still very random)
Antithesisoftime



Joined: Aug 20, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 17:10 Reply with quote Back to top

delusional wrote:
(BTW anyone remember how dumpoff works with Fend)?
dump off happens, then block, then fend.

On a side note, dump off is a 2 edged sword, and I managed a Larson with a bull centaur because of it. When used right, dump off is game breaking, but imagine a scenario where you dump off, that pad is intercepted, and the ensuing block kills your player.
c9805222



Joined: May 11, 2016

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 18:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I've started to think about wrestle on a dump-off player - you able to pull down the blitzing player and potentially leave a TD scoring gap for you to run through or simply prevent follow-up to the new bc.
gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 20:52 Reply with quote Back to top

Doofr wrote:
If you want use the dumpoff tactic, no need of block, just need surehands, dodge, NoS , pass to become realy annoying.


That's an extremely specialized 160k tv player with AV7 and no block. Sooner or later you're going to have to field him for defense. I think taking wrestle as an alternative to block is a cute idea but it's not exactly foolproof, sometimes you'd really rather just take your chances on holding on to the ball.
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 20:57 Reply with quote Back to top

wrestle makes a lot of sense actually, as dump off happens once the hit is initiated but before the block is resolved, right?
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 21:16 Reply with quote Back to top

Sp00keh wrote:
dump off happens once the hit is initiated but before the block is resolved, right?

Yes.
About Wrestle: I don't like it on ball carriers, even with Dump-Off, because in case of 1d or -2d block could be better not to use Dump-Off (i.e. Wrestle makes the decision to Dump-Off more predictable).
Also, if the ball carrier needed to block/blitz he would be forced to rr Both Down/Skull dice.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 21:37 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Also, if the ball carrier needed to block/blitz he would be forced to rr Both Down/Skull dice.


That part might not be so bad, if you're blitzing with the ball there's a good chance you'd want to reroll a BD/skull result to get a push anyhow. But on balance there are probably more times you really want block than there are that you want wrestle.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 21:46 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:

That part might not be so bad, if you're blitzing with the ball there's a good chance you'd want to reroll a BD/skull result to get a push anyhow.

What if the rr results into another Both Down/Skull?
What if you already used the rr for another action, or you want to save the rr for a GFI with the ball carrier?
Choosing to rr the Both Down/Skull is a thing, being forced to rr it's a totally different one.
Block is way better on ball carrier.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 13, 2017 - 21:47; edited 1 time in total
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 21:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Antithesisoftime wrote:

On a side note, dump off is a 2 edged sword, ...

but imagine a scenario where you dump off, that pad is intercepted, and the ensuing block kills your player.


or the dump off fails, ball hits the ground. Block turns out to be just pushes, but b/c of the failed dump off the ball is recovered anyway by the other team.

for me dump-off is a skill taken later on a thrower if ever. have NOS, pass, and safe throw first.

about assassins:

as rookies they are ok. The 7av makes them a target for attrition lovers (which can be an advantage to you).

However, they quickly become the most feared player on the pitch once they get some skills. Though that requires them sucking up lots of MVPs.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Norscan Warrior!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 21:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:

However, they quickly become the most feared player on the pitch once they get some skills.

That maybe happens in Ranked or in Theorycraft division.
In Box Assassins are a rare sight, and I don't remember developed Assassins after 2026 matches played, no sane coach would bother to develop an Assassin.
They are a joke, and not even fluffy: MA 6, average AG (for a DE) and no Dodge/Block, really badly designed.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!
gpope



Joined: Jun 04, 2010

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 22:31 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
gpope wrote:

That part might not be so bad, if you're blitzing with the ball there's a good chance you'd want to reroll a BD/skull result to get a push anyhow.

What if the rr results into another Both Down/Skull?
What if you already used the rr for another action, or you want to save the rr for a GFI with the ball carrier?
Choosing to rr the Both Down/Skull is a thing, being forced to rr it's a totally different one.
Block is way better on ball carrier.


Generally most coaches prefer to avoid blitzing with the ball except as a last resort. In a lot of those situations a both down may mean, at worst, you completely lose your chance to score whether or not you have block. In other last ditch scenarios you are adding multiple contested dodges and possibly a GFI to your scoring attempt. Both downs are generally bad news for a ballcarrier trying to blitz through and block doesn't change that.

My preference is still for block, I'm not disagreeing with you. Wrestle + dump-off is definitely a gimmick, it might not be 100% disastrous but it's still going to be less useful than block.
Antithesisoftime



Joined: Aug 20, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 22:58 Reply with quote Back to top

gpope wrote:
MattDakka wrote:
gpope wrote:

That part might not be so bad, if you're blitzing with the ball there's a good chance you'd want to reroll a BD/skull result to get a push anyhow.

What if the rr results into another Both Down/Skull?
What if you already used the rr for another action, or you want to save the rr for a GFI with the ball carrier?
Choosing to rr the Both Down/Skull is a thing, being forced to rr it's a totally different one.
Block is way better on ball carrier.


Generally most coaches prefer to avoid blitzing with the ball except as a last resort. In a lot of those situations a both down may mean, at worst, you completely lose your chance to score whether or not you have block. In other last ditch scenarios you are adding multiple contested dodges and possibly a GFI to your scoring attempt. Both downs are generally bad news for a ballcarrier trying to blitz through and block doesn't change that.

My preference is still for block, I'm not disagreeing with you. Wrestle + dump-off is definitely a gimmick, it might not be 100% disastrous but it's still going to be less useful than block.
never worried about both down results when DeAndre carries the ball.
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 13, 2017 - 23:53 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:

In Box Assassins are a rare sight,


that's because Box is for people with emotional issues...and those people gravitate towards claw teams.

Assassins do not possess claws...thus a rare sight.

Once an assassin gains block and side step, opponents avoid them at all costs.

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Norscan Warrior!
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