66 coaches online • Server time: 21:37
Forum Chat
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post NBFL Season 32: The ...goto Post Creating a custom to...goto Post Secret League Americ...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
jdm



Joined: Nov 30, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 08:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Plasmoid already runs play by email leagues. I think this is the link but I've not played in it so can't be sure: http://www.plasmoids.dk/pbem/

You could pm datom or stowelly on here for more info or email plasmoid himself

_________________
Image
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 08:15 Reply with quote Back to top

@Desultory - I really hope you are in the minority with that thought. I understand that sometimes things don’t always go the right way. Take me cancelling matts game for example. Could have dealt with it better perhaps, however, it’s done.

In terms of you asking for your donation back, I think you are getting grief about it as that’s not how donations work. If it was a paid service, fair enough. Just my take on it.

What gripes me is that some coaches are keen to be negative about certain things they don’t agree with on the site. Fair enough. These coaches are the ones though that never say anything positive, struggle to contribute to the site in a positive manner and just expect to take. And when things don’t go their way it’s the fault of Christer or the admins. Perhaps this is where people are seeing it as entitled.

Also, as you are doing, stating they a leaving FUMBBL for their own reasons, then returning to be negative yet again on the forums. Perhaps that’s also making FUMBBL an unfriendly place in your eyes. Perception is a funny thing.

_________________
FUMBBL Podcast Donate to the FUMBBL Podcast!
ramchop



Joined: Oct 12, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 09:14
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

This is such a negative thread. "Why isn't FUMBBL growing?" - negative in title and content.

"How can we grow FUMBBL?"
In my corner of the world one of our most experienced TT coaches (#3 NAF ranked Chaos coach, #9 ranked Slann) played his first game of FUMBBL last night. Attracted here by a NZ based Secret League starting soon. He's been around the TT world for ages, not too computer literate, but seems to have enjoyed his first foray into this space. I expect there are other coaches like him who just need to take that first step.

And then there are coaches new to Blood Bowl. A big increase in their numbers thanks to the renewed attention of GW. A percentage of them might sniff around here with encouragement. A percentage of them might get hooked.

How to grow FUMBBL? Be part of making it an even better place. And there are many ways of doing this. Playing nice is a good start.
Fanky



Joined: Jul 07, 2016

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 09:43 Reply with quote Back to top

ramchop wrote:
This is such a negative thread. "Why isn't FUMBBL growing?" - negative in title and content.

"How can we grow FUMBBL?"
In my corner of the world one of our most experienced TT coaches (#3 NAF ranked Chaos coach, #9 ranked Slann) played his first game of FUMBBL last night. Attracted here by a NZ based Secret League starting soon. He's been around the TT world for ages, not too computer literate, but seems to have enjoyed his first foray into this space. I expect there are other coaches like him who just need to take that first step.

And then there are coaches new to Blood Bowl. A big increase in their numbers thanks to the renewed attention of GW. A percentage of them might sniff around here with encouragement. A percentage of them might get hooked.

How to grow FUMBBL? Be part of making it an even better place. And there are many ways of doing this. Playing nice is a good start.


This is a very constructive and thoughtful post!
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 10:51
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:
Similarly to your situation, any thread I brought to the forums was locked and/or flamed. Ultimately I complained to Christer, and his answer was literally "shit happens". I still have the message/correspondence. But he was kind enough to return my donation, even though he complained about it.


Let me be fully transparent since you bring this up. This is the conversation:

Desultory wrote:
Dear Christer,

I am sorry to bother you, but I feel like there is no alternative.

Recently jarvis_pants ended a game (in a draw) that didn't start, after I submitted a support ticket because my opponent didn't show and dissapeared for 8+days:
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3890424
Is it possible to remedy this so the concession is awarded in my favour?

This may have been an accident, but I am not convinced it is, because in the past jarvis_pants cancelled a game between myself, and another admin (Lorebass), despite Lorebass dropping and refusing to play within the blackbox 3 day rule. I believe jarvis_pants cancelled this game because I was complaining about being mistreated, and I annoyed him. I got Woodstock involved in this earlier situation, and Woodstocks answer was 'shit happens', so I have not involved any one else in this new problem.

These 2-3 conversations are available in my pm's.

I wish to have my donation refunded. Is that possible? I am sick and tired of the admins lack of caring and lack of professionalism.

Thank you for your time,

All the best,

(Name removed for privacy reasons)


Christer wrote:

Hello.

I've refunded your donation and removed your badges on the site that corresponded to that.

Not particularly inclined to look into your complaint any further as it'd require even more time than it took to undo the donation (if I were you, I'd consider the concept of a donation a bit further before you make them). So, my response to your match is: "Shit happens".

Have a nice day.

-- Christer


Unfair decision on my part? Perhaps. I spend an inordinate amount of hours trying to make this place better. Starting a conversation with an insult isn't likely to make me spend any more time than absolutely necessary.

And yes, I refunded the donation. If you're expecting that a donation will get you special treatment and expect me to take insults and apologize to you because of it, I don't want your money. You call my response to refunding your donation complaining. I'll let other people judge for themselves.

Oh, and for the record, this was in April of 2017.

(Note, the next section is directed at everyone who reads this, rather than a response to Desultory).

Look, I don't claim to always have the right response to every situation, I don't claim to always make the right decision, and I don't claim to always be objective. I do try my best at all times, and I while I sometimes feel I don't do enough for the site, at other times I spend an incredible amount of time and effort to keep this place running.

Having people approach me with issues or if they want me to review a call that another staff member has done because they feel it's the wrong one is something I welcome. I try to stay away from first-line support stuff partly because I want to give people the option to do so. If I were to make the first call on a situation, there really isn't anywhere to turn for review.

However, I'm human much like the rest of you. Sometimes, I'm stressed out, tired from work or tired from having spent literally all my free time on maintenance or code for the site. If you catch me at one of these times and instead of being polite towards me, you charge at me with your guns blazing, I am likely to not dedicate time on your particular issue and perhaps respond in a short fashion.

And just to clarify: I'm not writing this to complain that I'm always stressed and need your sympathy. For the most part, I'm doing well Smile
mister__joshua



Joined: Jun 20, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 11:03
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Christer wrote:
...For the most part, I'm doing well Smile


Apart from constantly falling off your bike Wink

_________________
"Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man." - The Dude

Mr. J's LRB7 / Forum
sonrises



Joined: May 02, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 12:31 Reply with quote Back to top

Falling off a bike bug reported. This one needs urgent fixing and coding. Work on that one urgently @christer... or this site will be unplayable! Razz
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 15:04 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:

People like you and Dakka unilaterally believe yourselves to be the arbiter of what is right and the admins are just lackeys to do your righteous will.

So, this is my righteous will:
"No coach may under any circumstances simply abandon a game. Either concede or play on. This applies even if your opponent fouls your players every turn, delays a touchdown or does other things you may find unsportsmanlike."
By weird coincidence my righteous will is written on FUMBBL rules page!
I just want clear and cut site rules. To follow rules I must know the rules and they must be clear. If site rules are applied arbitrarily I can't rely on them to be applied, like happened to me.

To summarize:

- I expect that my opponent doesn't leave the match, but we know that shit happens.
I have no problem with waiting and resuming the game another day, as long as my opponent communicates, and dear mrt1212, I sent a PM to my opponent, asking kindly and please to tell me when to finish the game.

"Posted by MattDakka on 2018-12-25 15:25:19

Hi, looks like you have disconnected from our match, I'm waiting for you in-game.
If you can't reconnect today please tell me a schedule to finish the match.
I'm available generally every day from 14:00 server time on.

Matt"

He ignored it, so I sent a ticket to staff and invited some admins to the PM I sent to my opponent, who kept ignoring me and the staff.

Now you might think: "The guy had some serious real life issue and could not reconnect to site". During these 13 days he kept popping up to the site, without writing anything, and this lack of communication is disrespectful, especially for the security staff, who got ignored, not to mention the rule infringement itself.

- That said, since admins could not award the concession (I know it and I even wrote that they did their best but lacked the tools) I would have been fine with waiting and having my team stuck, because I suspect my opponent left on purpose, as the disconnection happened after I injured one developed Bloater of his. Maybe it was a coincidence, but in case he left on purpose, I wanted to keep his team stuck until he accepted to resume the game or the game was conceded. Instead, without my agreement, the game got cancelled and the leaver got rewarded and not punished, and even if he got punished, he could make another account. My problem is, if I activated again in the Box I might face the same guy or another leaver, or the same guy with a double account, and this experience would repeat again. So logic suggests to refrain from playing again until the concession button is fixed or, even better, the client awards concession after 1 hour of disconnection, so no admin has to be disturbed.

- Since site rules can't be enforced due to lack of tools, there should be a huge disclaimer saying: "If your opponent leaves, don't bother to disturb admins, send him PM, invite admins to the PM and waste your time. The game will be cancelled after an X amount of days. Shit happens."


Last edited by MattDakka on Jan 08, 2019 - 15:10; edited 1 time in total
bghandras



Joined: Feb 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 15:09 Reply with quote Back to top

I think this last post does a good job of explaining issue, the cause and the consequence. I just wish there was no 'noise' before this was born. Better leave the emotions out of the complains....that is my 0.02...

_________________
Image
Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 15:37 Reply with quote Back to top

Throweck wrote:
@Desultory - I really hope you are in the minority with that thought. I understand that sometimes things don’t always go the right way. Take me cancelling matts game for example. Could have dealt with it better perhaps, however, it’s done.

In terms of you asking for your donation back, I think you are getting grief about it as that’s not how donations work. If it was a paid service, fair enough. Just my take on it.

What gripes me is that some coaches are keen to be negative about certain things they don’t agree with on the site. Fair enough. These coaches are the ones though that never say anything positive, struggle to contribute to the site in a positive manner and just expect to take. And when things don’t go their way it’s the fault of Christer or the admins. Perhaps this is where people are seeing it as entitled.

Also, as you are doing, stating they a leaving FUMBBL for their own reasons, then returning to be negative yet again on the forums. Perhaps that’s also making FUMBBL an unfriendly place in your eyes. Perception is a funny thing.


You are right. It's true that I have only ever come to the forums to provide critical feedback. But I don't think i've done it rudely. Whereas quite a few other people are just plain rude most of the time, for example saying or implying i'm whining/entitled etc etc.

It's a shame that some people jump on the take offense / ad hominem attack attitude as soon as any one presents a critique, even if the critique presented is unfair, or not presented politely enough for ones taste.

I'll take this opportunity to say that I think that the client is great. When coaches do what they are supposed to (and not drop) this site is incredibly efficient and truly amazing. That is of course a tribute to Christer, Kalimar?, and any one involved in developing/hosting.
I wouldn't have played so many games if I didn't think that. I also wouldn't have donated if I didn't think that. Don't let my critiques take anything away from that.

Christer wrote:

Let me be fully transparent since you bring this up. This is the conversation:

Desultory wrote:
Dear Christer,

I am sorry to bother you, but I feel like there is no alternative.

Recently jarvis_pants ended a game (in a draw) that didn't start, after I submitted a support ticket because my opponent didn't show and dissapeared for 8+days:
https://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=match&id=3890424
Is it possible to remedy this so the concession is awarded in my favour?

This may have been an accident, but I am not convinced it is, because in the past jarvis_pants cancelled a game between myself, and another admin (Lorebass), despite Lorebass dropping and refusing to play within the blackbox 3 day rule. I believe jarvis_pants cancelled this game because I was complaining about being mistreated, and I annoyed him. I got Woodstock involved in this earlier situation, and Woodstocks answer was 'shit happens', so I have not involved any one else in this new problem.

These 2-3 conversations are available in my pm's.

I wish to have my donation refunded. Is that possible? I am sick and tired of the admins lack of caring and lack of professionalism.

Thank you for your time,

All the best,

(Name removed for privacy reasons)


Christer wrote:

Hello.

I've refunded your donation and removed your badges on the site that corresponded to that.

Not particularly inclined to look into your complaint any further as it'd require even more time than it took to undo the donation (if I were you, I'd consider the concept of a donation a bit further before you make them). So, my response to your match is: "Shit happens".

Have a nice day.

-- Christer


Unfair decision on my part? Perhaps. I spend an inordinate amount of hours trying to make this place better. Starting a conversation with an insult isn't likely to make me spend any more time than absolutely necessary.

And yes, I refunded the donation. If you're expecting that a donation will get you special treatment and expect me to take insults and apologize to you because of it, I don't want your money. You call my response to refunding your donation complaining. I'll let other people judge for themselves.

Oh, and for the record, this was in April of 2017.

(Note, the next section is directed at everyone who reads this, rather than a response to Desultory).

Look, I don't claim to always have the right response to every situation, I don't claim to always make the right decision, and I don't claim to always be objective. I do try my best at all times, and I while I sometimes feel I don't do enough for the site, at other times I spend an incredible amount of time and effort to keep this place running.

Having people approach me with issues or if they want me to review a call that another staff member has done because they feel it's the wrong one is something I welcome. I try to stay away from first-line support stuff partly because I want to give people the option to do so. If I were to make the first call on a situation, there really isn't anywhere to turn for review.

However, I'm human much like the rest of you. Sometimes, I'm stressed out, tired from work or tired from having spent literally all my free time on maintenance or code for the site. If you catch me at one of these times and instead of being polite towards me, you charge at me with your guns blazing, I am likely to not dedicate time on your particular issue and perhaps respond in a short fashion.

And just to clarify: I'm not writing this to complain that I'm always stressed and need your sympathy. For the most part, I'm doing well Smile


I don't know what insult you refer to. I don't believe I ever directly insulted you. I don't think I was ever impolite to you. We haven't had any correspondence other than what you posted. I believe it's the first time you ever addressed me.

I changed my mind about donating, after my terrible experience with these admins. I don't see why that is so awful. Why would I ever want to give money to a site that has/ignores or supports admins acting like they did...
I would be shocked if any one else would have dealt with the situation more politely or better than I did.

Thankfully I haven't had to deal with any drops since coming back, but if the same guys are still admins, I can't imagine anything has improved in that department, and for me it's a BIG negative about FUMBBL.

There's a difference between expecting politeness and expecting flattery, and I'm confident some of these admins are in their position solely because they enjoy the power.
Can I just note here that in contrast to the aforementioned admins; every experience I've had with Kryten has been unbelievably efficient and beyond amazing.

As I said, I love the site when games aren't dropped, but dealing with drops was/is a ridiculously stressful experience, and I would beg you Christer to consider automating it or doing something about it. Because frankly anything is better than some admin making a subjective decision when they are maybe "stressed out, tired from work". It seems like even the guys who I consider good guys (throweck) manage to mess this up, given the situation with mattdakka.

I don't know what 'special treatment' you think I wanted?
I didn't even realise what I asked for was special.
You say you welcome people approaching you with issues, but it didn't seem that way from my experience.

_________________
Image
Throweck



Joined: Feb 23, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 15:39 Reply with quote Back to top

Welcome back Matt.

I apologised yesterday. We understand your argument. Realistically, does it REALLY matter that much to the point you aren't willing to play here anymore? Is it that bad in comparison to other stuff? If I only had that one thing to get that upset about I'd be a really happy man Smile

Is it time to acknowledge what happened, reflect and learn from it? I have.

Let's leave it there shall we and concentrate on improving the site as a whole as a group of people that share a very niche love (including above issues).

_________________
FUMBBL Podcast Donate to the FUMBBL Podcast!
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 15:53 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks, I'm not mad at you, Throweck, by the way.
I just didn't like how the situation was managed, nor I demanded to fix immediately the concession bug, I would have waited with my team stuck forever if that was necessary to punish the leaver but the game was cancelled against my will, but anyway, although I do really love BB and the community around here, I think that I should blame myself if I found again a leaver, because the bad experience would repeat itself.
It's true that the community is great overall, but I might find the odd bad apple again and without tools the bad apple can't be punished and the game and my time would be lost.
Desultory



Joined: Jun 24, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 15:54 Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:

People like you and Dakka unilaterally believe yourselves to be the arbiter of what is right and the admins are just lackeys to do your righteous will.

So, this is my righteous will:
"No coach may under any circumstances simply abandon a game. Either concede or play on. This applies even if your opponent fouls your players every turn, delays a touchdown or does other things you may find unsportsmanlike."
By weird coincidence my righteous will is written on FUMBBL rules page!
I just want clear and cut site rules. To follow rules I must know the rules and they must be clear. If site rules are applied arbitrarily I can't rely on them to be applied, like happened to me.

To summarize:

- I expect that my opponent doesn't leave the match, but we know that shit happens.
I have no problem with waiting and resuming the game another day, as long as my opponent communicates, and dear mrt1212, I sent a PM to my opponent, asking kindly and please to tell me when to finish the game.

"Posted by MattDakka on 2018-12-25 15:25:19

Hi, looks like you have disconnected from our match, I'm waiting for you in-game.
If you can't reconnect today please tell me a schedule to finish the match.
I'm available generally every day from 14:00 server time on.

Matt"

He ignored it, so I sent a ticket to staff and invited some admins to the PM I sent to my opponent, who kept ignoring me and the staff.

Now you might think: "The guy had some serious real life issue and could not reconnect to site". During these 13 days he kept popping up to the site, without writing anything, and this lack of communication is disrespectful, especially for the security staff, who got ignored, not to mention the rule infringement itself.

- That said, since admins could not award the concession (I know it and I even wrote that they did their best but lacked the tools) I would have been fine with waiting and having my team stuck, because I suspect my opponent left on purpose, as the disconnection happened after I injured one developed Bloater of his. Maybe it was a coincidence, but in case he left on purpose, I wanted to keep his team stuck until he accepted to resume the game or the game was conceded. Instead, without my agreement, the game got cancelled and the leaver got rewarded and not punished, and even if he got punished, he could make another account. My problem is, if I activated again in the Box I might face the same guy or another leaver, or the same guy with a double account, and this experience would repeat again. So logic suggests to refrain from playing again until the concession button is fixed or, even better, the client awards concession after 1 hour of disconnection, so no admin has to be disturbed.

- Since site rules can't be enforced due to lack of tools, there should be a huge disclaimer saying: "If your opponent leaves, don't bother to disturb admins, send him PM, invite admins to the PM and waste your time. The game will be cancelled after an X amount of days. Shit happens."


mrt was a troll and it seems like he will always be a troll.

This is fresh for Dakka, so of course he is going to be frustrated. I feel his frustrations, because I experience the same thing. I left the site for 2 years because of it, and the issue hasn't been fixed.

I completely agree and support everything Dakka wrote.

_________________
Image
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 15:58
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

Desultory wrote:
I am sick and tired of the admins lack of caring and lack of professionalism.


Desultory wrote:
I don't know what insult you refer to. I don't believe I ever directly insulted you. I don't think I was ever impolite to you. We haven't had any correspondence other than what you posted. I believe it's the first time you ever addressed me.


And yes, this was the first message you ever sent to me. Your first message was saying that the admin team, which includes me, lacks caring and lacks professionalism. A staff team that I hand picked and trust.

There must be a difference in the culture between you and me, because in my mind that's pretty insulting.

And yes, you'll probably respond with that you didn't mean me, or that you said "directly". And now that I've said that you'll say I'm projecting and it's insulting to you that I would think that of you.

The thing is, this stuff never ends because it's apparently *very* difficult to drop things. May I remind you that this was in 2017?
Christer



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2019 - 16:02
FUMBBL Staff
Reply with quote Back to top

MattDakka wrote:
Thanks, I'm not mad at you, Throweck, by the way.
I just didn't like how the situation was managed, nor I demanded to fix immediately the concession bug, I would have waited with my team stuck forever if that was necessary to punish the leaver but the game was cancelled against my will, but anyway, although I do really love BB and the community around here, I think that I should blame myself if I found again a leaver, because the bad experience would repeat itself.
It's true that the community is great overall, but I might find the odd bad apple again and without tools the bad apple can't be punished and the game and my time would be lost.


Matt,

Looking at the issue specifically, it does appear that cancelling the game was a mistake and that you should have been given the option to cancel the game, push it through at its current point or simply wait until the fix for forced concessions was in place (the last option doesn't have a deadline; see my latest blog post as to why [shameless self-promotion]).

Maybe there was a private conversation between the two of you, but either way. It appears to have been cleared out regardless. Glad you're being a sport about it.
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic