88 coaches online • Server time: 23:16
Index Search Usergroups Profile
Log in
Recent Forum Topics goto Post Watching replaysgoto Post Suomiliiga - 2. kaus...goto Post Picon Expansion Proj...
SearchSearch 
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Arktoris



Joined: Feb 16, 2004

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 22:50 Reply with quote Back to top

[quote="koadah"]
Arktoris wrote:
koadah wrote:
Arktoris wrote:
koadah wrote:

Arktoris wrote:
sweep away the unnecessary rules. We old folks know the rules well because we were here when the new rules were invented and thus got to learn them in steps. But new folks are hit with pages and pages of rules and are expected to know them all before their first game.


Get rid of the rules and you get a horrible mess like Cyanide.

Arktoris wrote:


read what I said again.


yes, when I meet someone who clearly is new and doesn't have a grasp of the fundamental rules. I tell them about the 145 club. Provide link etc.


So which rules are the "unnecessary" ones?


ok, as you've mentioned, without the 15 minute disconnection rule or all games are expected to play through...fumbbl would collapse.

But how about say, "no team names in all caps" rule?

Would fumbbl fall apart if a team were named, "NASA"?


Well, I didn't know this rule. Not knowing it hasn't caused me any problems these last 12 years.

This rule won't hold you up more than a few seconds. I don't really see a problem with it.


proves my point. You've been here 12 years...and still don't know all the rules.

Now imagine how daunting it would be to know all the rules after being here 12 days.

You glance over the rules page and see some rules appear important, others appear fluff.

So you ask "are all these rules important, or fluffy guidelines?"

_________________
Hail to Berserker Eric! The latest charioteer to DIE for bloodbowl! - Slain, by Norscan Warrior!
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 23:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Arktoris wrote:

proves my point. You've been here 12 years...and still don't know all the rules.

Now imagine how daunting it would be to know all the rules after being here 12 days.

You glance over the rules page and see some rules appear important, others appear fluff.

So you ask "are all these rules important, or fluffy guidelines?"


Not a problem. You don't need to "know" the rule. It is clearly validated at data input.

A rule against something I haven't done in 12 years.

_________________
Image
Secret League Open - Brawl - Max TW 1750 April 19th
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 23:33 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
I tell you what though; if we're relatively quickly up to date rules-wise when the BB2016 release cycle finishes, that's a chunky advantage over Cyanide. Hell of an ask coding wise for C and Kalimar, mind.


This comes back to the free software model that I was advocating a couple of pages back. Any proposed change is going to be slow and difficult, when we only have 1 or 2 developers, whose spare time is limited. However, it doesn't have to be that way, if things opened up a bit. C and Kalimar could still call the shots and give final approvals, but wouldn't have to code every line personally. But, of course, that is their decision to make.

About the idea of doing a FUMBBL major with pre-built teams: how about also making it resurrection and an online NAF tourney? That might help to appeal to the TT types Smile

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
Purplegoo



Joined: Mar 23, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 29, 2017 - 23:46 Reply with quote Back to top

Crossing the streams, eh? That’s some outside of the box thinking for you! Wink

One of the very early decisions we made about online NAF events was that the tournaments should be familiar to NAF members. A FUMBBL major, uncapped TV affair doesn’t meet that criteria. That said, it’s not my party anymore, ask Strider!

I have mixed feelings about the pre-made major team idea. Majors aren’t for me. I don’t think the TV is right for top quality play, The other main issue with it is the team building aspect; it encourages unfriendly use of the division and favours the lucky. I guess if you take one of the issues away they become a bit more attractive for me, but don’t you make them less attractive for those that like them now? I’m unconvinced.

We should be careful not to equate ‘NAF types’ with ‘TT Blood Bowl’. There are 3-3.5 k active NAF members. There must be many, many, many more that have come into the game on TT these last couple of years. The NAF could supply us with keen coaches that are ready made FUMBBLists, but there is a bigger slice of the pie we should also aim at, even if it’s a tougher ask?

As for the code point - I guess only one opinion matters on that, and it isn’t mine. Smile
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 02:12 Reply with quote Back to top

Purplegoo wrote:
One of the very early decisions we made about online NAF events was that the tournaments should be familiar to NAF members. A FUMBBL major, uncapped TV affair doesn’t meet that criteria. That said, it’s not my party anymore, ask Strider!

I have mixed feelings about the pre-made major team idea. Majors aren’t for me. I don’t think the TV is right for top quality play, The other main issue with it is the team building aspect; it encourages unfriendly use of the division and favours the lucky. I guess if you take one of the issues away they become a bit more attractive for me, but don’t you make them less attractive for those that like them now? I’m unconvinced.


What I had in mind was a major with pre-built teams that is also non-progression/resurrection, therefore it would be TV-capped, by definition. That way, it would be a level playing-field. Team-building and pimping wouldn't enter into the equation - it would be purely about coaching skill and the luck of Nuffle. That would remove barriers to entry to new players and those that don't have tons of free time to pimp a team. The teams could be completely rookie, or set at a TV of 1300 or 1500, whatever works.

It would break the usual mould for FUMBBL majors, but if we're talking about attracting new players, there shouldn't be any sacred cows. It would also be a different challenge for FUMBBL regulars too.

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
almic85



Joined: May 25, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 10:39 Reply with quote Back to top

As someone that has been around for a long time but really only stuck to League games I can tell you the two things that stop me being more active in ranked.

1/ the “new” game finder is god awful for me to understand and seems irrelevant when we have Box. I miss going into the main chat and typing in LFG and seeing what spiders crawled out of the woodwork. If I play a game now I may as well be playing an AI for all the interaction I get out of setting up a match and in game chat.

2/ I miss the community spirit that used to hang around in IRC. The main draw for me for FUMBBL over other games and websites was always the level of involvement of the community in general. There would always be spooneh, Synn or someone else ready to talk smack in IRC.

From the above two points you can see the big selling point for FUMBBL is human interaction. The more human interaction and the less automated process you have the more invested you become as a user.

In a time when everyone seems to want to streamline the speed to play all I really want is to slow down and enjoy the experience.

_________________
SWL the place to be.

If you're interested join the Fringe
Burnalot



Joined: Aug 02, 2003

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 14:11 Reply with quote Back to top

almic85 wrote:


2/ I miss the community spirit that used to hang around in IRC. The main draw for me for FUMBBL over other games and websites was always the level of involvement of the community in general. There would always be spooneh, Synn or someone else ready to talk smack in IRC.



I always thought smack talking was one of the main problems with chat. When you see a small number of experienced users circlejerking it can be off-putting.

I agree with the human interaction stuff though as seen in my above post.

_________________
If Jah is by my side, how can I be afraid?
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 15:07 Reply with quote Back to top

Burnalot wrote:
almic85 wrote:


2/ I miss the community spirit that used to hang around in IRC. The main draw for me for FUMBBL over other games and websites was always the level of involvement of the community in general. There would always be spooneh, Synn or someone else ready to talk smack in IRC.



I always thought smack talking was one of the main problems with chat. When you see a small number of experienced users circlejerking it can be off-putting.

I agree with the human interaction stuff though as seen in my above post.


On other sites I saw people being advised to keep away from Fumbbl due to the toxic atmosphere created by "the Click" (sic).

Discord should be good now though as the worst offenders appear to have gone.

_________________
Image
Secret League Open - Brawl - Max TW 1750 April 19th
DeathRollerDAD



Joined: Oct 02, 2014

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

"The click"?
JackassRampant



Joined: Feb 26, 2011

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 15:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Damn, but this game is hard. I'm teaching TT to my D&D group. A couple of them have FUMBBL accounts, but they're not ready for FUMBBL yet. I've found a few shortcuts that help people understand the harder elements of the game (tackle zones and assists are the first big stumbling block), but it takes a little experience before you're ready to go play on your own, and when two noob coaches face off, confusion can reign. I'll be introducing them to FUMBBL after season 1 ends in June; that should help them improve quickly.

As for those saying this game isn't as complex as some, because it doesn't have as many rules, you're technically right. But this game is super difficult for a newer coach to get into. I can explain assists in ten seconds, maybe fifteen; but I have to repeat that ten-second explanation somewhere between 5 and 30 times in play before a new coach starts to get it and apply it on his or her own.

So, really, this thread is about the fact that we have two big stumbling blocks; one we can't and don't want to avoid, that this game is hard. That's what we like about it, so it is what it is. But the other, the FUMBBL interface, that shouldn't be too much of an obstacle, and right now it's a small but significant one.

_________________
What is Nuffle's tree? Risk its trunk, space the branches. Touchdowns are its fruit.
What is Nuffle's lawn? Inches, squares, and Tackle Zones; reddened blades of grass.
JellyBelly



Joined: Jul 08, 2009

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 15:29 Reply with quote Back to top

DeathRollerDAD wrote:
"The click"?


Presumably a mis-spelling of 'clique'. Yes, it used to be a bit like that in the chat years ago, with the 'old guard' trashing on new players and laughing about it. I agree the chat is a lot more pleasant now than it used to be.

_________________
"Opinions are like arseholes, everybody's got them and they all stink." - The protagonist, Fallout 2

"Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the eyes!!" Razz
koadah



Joined: Mar 30, 2005

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 16:27 Reply with quote Back to top

JackassRampant wrote:

So, really, this thread is about the fact that we have two big stumbling blocks; one we can't and don't want to avoid, that this game is hard. That's what we like about it, so it is what it is. But the other, the FUMBBL interface, that shouldn't be too much of an obstacle, and right now it's a small but significant one.


The game isn't "so hard" if you are not being mercilessly picked. Wink

I started 2/0/2 with no experience other than a handful of 2nd Ed games.

Your coaches may come on a little quicker if they played in their own Fumbbl league and 145 Club.

_________________
Image
Secret League Open - Brawl - Max TW 1750 April 19th
LittleOrc



Joined: Feb 20, 2015

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 16:55 Reply with quote Back to top

Personally, it does not take long at all to make a team. Make some names, most of the time they rhyme, other times they just have things to do with each-other, or they are reoccurring names from other teams. Also free skills and no injury for the first few games doesn't make much sense. You need to know how the game works and blunting that so the game seems easy, that just doesn't seem like it would work. Also there are plenty of forums and wikis (of sorts) for people to study. Also, some people (sann) do tutorials on youtube. If a new player is getting frustrated, they can go read or watch some videos so they can figure out what they can do differently if they are doing something bad.
Kaiowas



Joined: Apr 15, 2006

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 19:36 Reply with quote Back to top

i think the point about advertising the good of Fumbbl is a valid and somewhat slightly overlooked point in this thread (a few caught on)

if we argue the Fumbbl cup means nothing to non fumbbl people then what does The Sage gain from shouting from the rooftops about every big BB2 game he's not even playing in but is streaming? The GLN and other such great community efforts should be spread across FB and the other media venues like BB reddit to at least familiarise Fumbbl's name and not just have us be the ugly old cousin. Any time I ever see Fumbbl mentioned elsewhere its always rumour and conjecture about a bad experience (which usually stems from inexperience with the interface or from coaches who are the best in their TT group but haven't ever faced experience). I don't think it would cost cash for someone to give a few updates every so often as a sort of social media manager, just my 2p (your denomination may vary)
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Dec 30, 2017 - 20:02 Reply with quote Back to top

I've tried to bring some friends to FUMBBL, they didn't have to figure how to create a team, finding a game and other starting details that may be hard to find for a newcomer, the main obstacles I faced were:
1) the steep learning curve and the dice element, some didn't take well failing 2+ dodges with elves, odd injuries/block results, turnover mechanic, having players killed on turn 0 by rock (happened with a friend new to the game, he got really frustrated) and other similar things;
2) turn-based mechanic: today games are fast, mostly real time, and people generally want a quick game (roughly ranging from 15 to 30 minutes);
3) 2d graphics: personally I don't care about graphics (although I'd like a scalable client to reduce misclicks), but some younger friends didn't even consider to try the game due to its 2d graphics.

BB2 is not a better implementation of the game but it has over our client the edge of the shiny graphics and a more appealing look, and it steals some coaches for sure.
So, I don't think that improving a bit the site and the client would attract many more users, honestly, but of course would not be a negative thing.

_________________
Please vote the Diving Catch and Break Tackle/Diving Tackle bug reports, thanks!


Last edited by MattDakka on Dec 30, 2017 - 23:17; edited 1 time in total
Display posts from previous:     
 Jump to:   
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Powered by PNphpBB2 1.2 © 2003 PNphpBB Group
Credits