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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 20:21 Reply with quote Back to top

This should at least be normalized to the number of entrants for that race.

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Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 20:29 Reply with quote Back to top

DarthPhysicist wrote:
This should at least be normalized to the number of entrants for that race.


Yeah this was one of the issues I was worried about. If you have the time to do that, please feel free to do it Laughing

But in the end, the best coaches that want to win tournaments will play the best races. I was worried there could be skewing, but the only real issue in the data is that the new races have had less time to compete, but even then, only slann and maybe chaos pact would do better with time, underworld is just a bad race to play.

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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 07, 2018 - 23:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Soulmask wrote:
the best coaches that want to win tournaments will play the best races


This is probably true, but basically invalidates the data. Orcs are one of the most played races period, so by the time you take into account that even the best coach loses about 1/5 of the time, I'm not sure that deduceable from the raw numbers. I'm not suggesting that Norse should be at the top, but I would imagine they are less represented than Orcs by a large fraction. It really needs to be displayed in terms of wins/entrants.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 00:01 Reply with quote Back to top

List of points isn't up to date anyway - pro elves have more than 22: XFL masters, fumbbl cup wins, and a fumbbl cup final loss alone inside the last 2 years.

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Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 01:33 Reply with quote Back to top

If you think Orcs isnt one of the top if not the best tournament race to be playing, then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Now Pro elves could get a bump, imo they are just a bit worse than high elves, if not even with them.

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DarthPhysicist



Joined: Jun 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 01:42 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd say it depends on if we're talking teams starting from scratch or with unlimited TV. Not all tournaments are created equal.

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mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 02:34 Reply with quote Back to top

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2017/8/31/16238142/tiers-are-a-cheap-trick-to-spur-conversation?_ga=2.109580357.1590507381.1515375149-2096426827.1514942436

Behold my wisdom and shudder.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 02:36 Reply with quote Back to top

Soulmask wrote:
If you think Orcs isnt one of the top if not the best tournament race to be playing, then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Now Pro elves could get a bump, imo they are just a bit worse than high elves, if not even with them.


From personal experience, Pro Elves/Elven Union are much better at TV parity below 1750 than High Elves. My tourney record confirms it.
Soulmask



Joined: May 11, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 03:03 Reply with quote Back to top

mrt1212 wrote:
Soulmask wrote:
If you think Orcs isnt one of the top if not the best tournament race to be playing, then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Now Pro elves could get a bump, imo they are just a bit worse than high elves, if not even with them.


From personal experience, Pro Elves/Elven Union are much better at TV parity below 1750 than High Elves. My tourney record confirms it.


Well, as ive said 3-4 times now, the tier list is based on semi-finals, finals and major tournament wins, so it does not indicate power below TV2000.

Also, it's true that tiers bring conversation or attention, like top 10 videos on youtube, but they are also useful. Every fighting game get their character tiered, people rank heroes by win rating on dota 2, or pro games pickings/bans. Data and statistics are a very powerful tool, and people that ignore them are simply missing out.

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Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 05:13 Reply with quote Back to top

Leap everywhere is a huge advantage for Slann... using it more than 2 to 5 times a half is BAD COACHING not bad team design.
With Leap on every player you do not have to protect the 1 or 2 players with the skill. You can use ANY PLAYER to build your Front Line and back them up with ANY PLAYER ready to Leap at the right moment. If your opponent runs Left, runs Right, Backs Up... you have a Leaper there ready to Sack his ball carrier and another Leaper there ready to get the ball.
Catalyst32



Joined: Jul 14, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 05:25 Reply with quote Back to top

Norse having Block on almost all players should help a well built Norse team ahead of the game on the skills race at every TV level. (Except against Dorfs and CDs.)
By the time an opponent can get enough Block t eliminate your advantage there you should have the skills you need to counter the inherent strengths of your opponents. You should have the Tackle to beat the Amazons and Elves and Skaven and Lizards etc. The Guard and Mighty Blow to out strength Humans and other ST3 teams.
They are underdogs. But their skills head start is a that they can use to stay ahead of the curve.
mrt1212



Joined: Feb 26, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 05:59 Reply with quote Back to top

Soulmask wrote:
mrt1212 wrote:
Soulmask wrote:
If you think Orcs isnt one of the top if not the best tournament race to be playing, then I wholeheartedly disagree.

Now Pro elves could get a bump, imo they are just a bit worse than high elves, if not even with them.


From personal experience, Pro Elves/Elven Union are much better at TV parity below 1750 than High Elves. My tourney record confirms it.


Well, as ive said 3-4 times now, the tier list is based on semi-finals, finals and major tournament wins, so it does not indicate power below TV2000.

Also, it's true that tiers bring conversation or attention, like top 10 videos on youtube, but they are also useful. Every fighting game get their character tiered, people rank heroes by win rating on dota 2, or pro games pickings/bans. Data and statistics are a very powerful tool, and people that ignore them are simply missing out.


Thats a pretty big confounder
Sp00keh



Joined: Dec 06, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 08:29 Reply with quote Back to top

Catalyst32 wrote:
Norse having Block on almost all players should help a well built Norse team ahead of the game on the skills race at every TV level.


yea... "should" but instead they just win less as TV increases
probably the limiting factor is their low stats
Verminardo



Joined: Sep 27, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 09:36 Reply with quote Back to top

I do find it interesting to look at actual statistics, as opposed to one guy's opinion. The problem, then, is of course how to interpret the data. Prigin's list compiles all the Majors. It does not differentiate between

* Big Majors and small Majors;
* LRB4 Majors, CRP Majors and BB16 Majors;
* Ranked Majors and Box Majors.

Still from gut feel the list doesn't look too far off, I do think Orcs wouldn't be as strong if you took out the LRB4 results.
Dhaktokh



Joined: Sep 16, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 08, 2018 - 11:25 Reply with quote Back to top

As long as amazons are Tier C (D would be fine too) I have nothing to add. ;-D
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