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Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 19:00 Reply with quote Back to top

This team took a royal kicking last game: https://fumbbl.com/p/team?team_id=833147

Should I start over here? I'm inclined to give them one more game since I will definitely have enough gold to buy a new catcher after the next game, and should be able to skill up between 1-3 blitzers/catchers.

I usually play bash so elf union is a steep learning curve, but I wonder perhaps that if I get a core of blodgers maybe I can make do with the numerous loners for a while.

All elf players please share your thoughts, cheers!
pythrr



Joined: Mar 07, 2006

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 19:14 Reply with quote Back to top

retire. they are 5 games old

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Rags



Joined: Nov 09, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 19:21 Reply with quote Back to top

They've taken a lot of damage without developing any particularly special players, so starting again could well be a good option.

If you decide to persevere you have to skill those blitzers ASAP. Sidestep is much more effective/useful once you have dodge, as your guys go where you want, while staying on their more of the time! What have you been doing with the MVPs? Dedicate MVPs to both blitzers every time at least until you get dodge.

Others will have more to say no doubt and happy to discuss further if you like.
Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 19:27 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks guys - this team started before you could allocate mvps, and I've just picked them up again, hence the strange mvps. I had guard and mighty blow catchers who both bit the dust last game, taking a lot of spps with them.
MattDakka



Joined: Oct 09, 2007

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 19:30 Reply with quote Back to top

Unless you like the team name, I would retire them.
I wish you better luck next time!

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Guardikai



Joined: Jun 23, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 20:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Retire/retry.
captainmalkor



Joined: Sep 01, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 14, 2018 - 22:50 Reply with quote Back to top

I'd retire and remake
Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2018 - 01:01 Reply with quote Back to top

Retire and start over...

I've seen Elven teams built from the ground up one of two ways; both have merit and provide an interesting challenge.

Pour the money into a team full of linemen and 1 thrower, apoth and rerolls. Spend time playing elves and skilling your linemen and saving $. When you have a base of wrestle, dodge, block and fend (possibly roll some doubles and get Guard); then you buy your positionals as they skill quickly/easily and you've got a decent side with 1-2 skills on quite a few players. Blitzers either Cas or score a TD and you nominate them for MVP to get them blodge and later sidestep. Tackle next and MB on a double.

Catchers, are so easy to score with. Dodge first, then sidestep, sure feet, sprint. Block if they live long enough. Take any Stat increase on Blitzers and Catchers.

You should definitely throw and catch with Elves any chance you get deep in your own half to earn 1 SPP so you've got MVP candidates at the end of the game.

If you go for positionals first on your team build; the same strategy to skill players. Any chance you get to safely make a quick pass and catch try it to earn 1 SPP on a rookie. Any player that scores a TD or Cas goes on your MVP list.

Spectate some great Elven coaches to see how to avoid the hurt, or when to choose to put your eleves in harm's way; Relezite (won the 2017 FUMBBL Cup with Elves), antithesisoftime, cdwat, mushoomy and Grod are all coaches that I know coach elves with a fair amount of flair. Best way to learn is to watch experienced coaches play with their teams. Take a look at the strategies in FUMBBL Help on how to develop and skill elves. You can't win the Bash game with primarily AV7, so learn how to pressure the ball on Defence so that your opponent is more focussed on holding onto the ball and less focussed on destroying your team.

Learn how to chainpush a 1TTD if you don't know how; it can be done with M6
Joe1982



Joined: Dec 31, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2018 - 17:49 Reply with quote Back to top

Thanks for the input, and for the useful tips, Keothi. I think knowing when to pressure the ball is the key thing for me with elves. I had better success with wood elves on the tabletop version largely, I think, because it was far easier to force a play on the ball, especially at rookie level. The list of elf coaches is really useful - I'll check them out, and RIP the Nagarythe Adventurers.
garyt1



Joined: Mar 12, 2011

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2018 - 18:41 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi wrote:
..Pour the money into a team full of linemen and 1 thrower, apoth and rerolls. Spend time playing elves and skilling your linemen and saving $. ..

Not buying positionals on a starting team would be very odd. It is the positionals you generally want skilling up early.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2018 - 19:33 Reply with quote Back to top

A full lino team of pro elves is madness - they have zero skills, so you utterly remove any advantage this has in terms of granting you RR.

Starting without catchers is possibly advisable if you can run an ma6 drive.

I would not recommend rolling extra dice for farming spp (unless the player has the pass skill, then maybe). Basically i wouldn't do anything keothi suggested except watching Relezite.

I would recommend watching gseize and happygrue.

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bram



Joined: Jan 04, 2008

Post   Posted: Jan 15, 2018 - 21:20 Reply with quote Back to top

Don't retire the team.

If you think it's too much work to recover them now, put them aside for a while. In the meanwhile, start a new team and develop it. Once you feel confident enough, try to recover the Nagarythe Adventurers. It's fun and it adds a nice objective to work towards.

I did something similar with the Pearled Unicorns and didn't regret it.
Keothi



Joined: Jul 08, 2013

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2018 - 02:29 Reply with quote Back to top

ArrestedDevelopment and garyt1 I don't recommend a full team of line elves as a starting roster, I just said I've seen teams started off in that manner and then positionals brought in later. Admittedly once it was for fluff reasons and the coach started with only line elves. But it's also not a bad way to start playing; if you can learn to play good BB with a team lacking in skills through field positioning, good player marking and sound play then you can certainly do even better when you've got M8+skills etc

SPP farming is a legitimate tactic - quick passes and catches for 1 SPP with elves comes with a 70% success rate (unskilled) and 92.5% success rate if you are willing to burn a RR on unskilled players. If you have never done this on an Elf team, then I'm surprised. I've deliberately placed a blitzer on 5 SPP as my ball pickup player and then thrown a quick pass to get him his first skill. Or any other player that swung an MVP and didn't have any other SPP (more common under the fully random MVP allocation rule).

I would never advise throwing a quick pass and catch unless you know that you can safely retrieve the ball and get it to a safe location on your next turn and that the ball can't scatter and be within within TZ range of any opposing team player on their turn.

Sometimes madness is a good way to learn. If you learn the basics of elves and the worst you lose are line elves through your mistakes then that's a cheaper learning curve than losing the positionals. It's like playing goblins or Renegades. You do it for the challenge and fun of it. But yes I agree if you want to build a competitive and versatile team you invest in your positionals, follow the rule of 5 and don't get line elves SPP except by accidental or no other choice play.
almic85



Joined: May 25, 2009

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2018 - 03:58 Reply with quote Back to top

You will be fine to keep playing with this team.

Just focus on buying and skilling the blitzers and catchers before buying more linemen or throwers.

Put the journeymen in LoS duty or use them to throw underneath rolling cages to slow them down.

Take any plus stat on the blitzers and catchers.

I would recommend building 1 catcher into a wrackle, strip baller and if any get +ma then he becomes your 1tt player.

The blitzers with block and SS make good guard support for the wrackle strip ball catcher.

Or go down the route of getting the blitzers dodge, MB and tackle and use them to break things.

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ArrestedDevelopment



Joined: Sep 14, 2015

Post   Posted: Jan 16, 2018 - 09:14 Reply with quote Back to top

Keothi wrote:
ArrestedDevelopment and garyt1 I don't recommend a full team of line elves as a starting roster, I just said I've seen teams started off in that manner and then positionals brought in later. Admittedly once it was for fluff reasons and the coach started with only line elves. But it's also not a bad way to start playing; if you can learn to play good BB with a team lacking in skills through field positioning, good player marking and sound play then you can certainly do even better when you've got M8+skills etc

SPP farming is a legitimate tactic - quick passes and catches for 1 SPP with elves comes with a 70% success rate (unskilled) and 92.5% success rate if you are willing to burn a RR on unskilled players. If you have never done this on an Elf team, then I'm surprised. I've deliberately placed a blitzer on 5 SPP as my ball pickup player and then thrown a quick pass to get him his first skill. Or any other player that swung an MVP and didn't have any other SPP (more common under the fully random MVP allocation rule).

I would never advise throwing a quick pass and catch unless you know that you can safely retrieve the ball and get it to a safe location on your next turn and that the ball can't scatter and be within within TZ range of any opposing team player on their turn.

Sometimes madness is a good way to learn. If you learn the basics of elves and the worst you lose are line elves through your mistakes then that's a cheaper learning curve than losing the positionals. It's like playing goblins or Renegades. You do it for the challenge and fun of it. But yes I agree if you want to build a competitive and versatile team you invest in your positionals, follow the rule of 5 and don't get line elves SPP except by accidental or no other choice play.


I disagree with this again! Very Happy

Anyway the point I'm making is that for an experienced coach (or one from lrb4) starting with no positionals is possible, and maybe viable. And the pro elf roster is typified by having cheaper (for elves) linemen and more expensive positionals (the catchers especially are expensive).

But pro-elves are 6347 - HE starting all lino still gives you a relatively bashy team for elves, same with DE, and wood-elf all lino is still quick enough to score 7347 is a star player on some other teams; pro elf lineman are really not in that category.
You will fail dodges, you will fail blocks, and you are not quite fast enough to break contact fully, nor do you have the AV to maintain it.

That is why I said it was madness - the positionals on the pro elf team fill some pretty massive gaps: they either give block and some +AV (and can fill gaps, or provide surfs more readily), or they add the speed that lets you force opponents to chase rather than just mark and wait.

As for the passing - I would never do it because quite frankly I've won a lot of games due to elf opponents trying to farm spp and then finding themselves either failing pickups/passes/catches on consecutive turns or having to burn rerolls in t2/3 because while it was safe in turn 1 it isn't later. It may very well be worth it in a league if you know you're not going to contend that season anyway, but your mileage may vary there too.


And lastly, the "rule of 5" can go take a running jump. While yes, you will invest spp in positionals early, simply due to using blockers to block, blodgers (which the blitzers become in one skill usually, and catchers inevitably gravitate towards) to carry/score, neglecting your linemen is how you eventually find yourself on a one-way journey to lonerville, as having your opponent able to both-down your av7 with mb is going to leave you very shorthanded on every single drive you play. You can win shorthanded with elves obviously, but those "5" positionals become harder and harder to protect as you lose more players Wink

I also think Pros can benefit very strongly from a DP!



[edit] And guys, there's no natural S access on Elves, so don't throw around "with mb" and "with guard" as if this is an inevitability - yes, there's a reasonable chance you get a double (probability), but there's also a very fair chance you don't.

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