AunoAdam
Joined: Apr 08, 2009
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 Posted:
Jan 26, 2018 - 15:25 |
 
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Please, let me know your thoughts on this:
There are three aspects to consider when playing with any team:
- Force: ability to hurt opposing players and to avoid being hurt by them.
- Ball Handling: ability to move the ball around the pitch
- Speed: ability to move the players around the pitch
Each team has specific values for these aspects, although they change trough team development (i.e. a Lizardmen team that gets an skink with AG+, will increase greatly Ball Handling)
It is important before the start of each game, to determine in which aspects is your team better than the other, and adapt your play style consequently.
Determining the Aspect Triangle for each team is not trivial.
In the future, I will develop this ideas into a guide. Please feel free to share your feedback. |
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ArrestedDevelopment
Joined: Sep 14, 2015
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Jan 26, 2018 - 16:58 |
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Sounds like merdamathics. |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jan 26, 2018 - 17:11 |
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Force is a evaluation of your team Vs the other team
Speed, and ball handling, are described as just a measure of your own team. But this should not be taken in isolation
You need to consider the other team for both these factors, because of skills like stand firm, diving tackle, pass block (!) Tackle, sidestep, frenzy etc.
These are all control skills, and make the determination even less trivial |
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Sp00keh
Joined: Dec 06, 2011
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Jan 26, 2018 - 17:14 |
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Also, a single guy taken off the pitch or just out of range of the action, alters the calculation completely.
Such that working this out before a game, might actually be detrimental as you would need to abandon/ re evaluate it all the time |
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Gozer_the_Gozerian
Joined: May 30, 2015
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Jan 26, 2018 - 19:47 |
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Perhaps considering strength and toughness as two separate factors would be more effective, instead of 'force', thus transforming your triangle into a square. |
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keggiemckill
Joined: Oct 07, 2004
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Jan 26, 2018 - 20:00 |
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There is a saying we have in comedy that may apply here; Don't take career advice from someone on par or below the level you are currently in. |
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thoralf
Joined: Mar 06, 2008
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Jan 26, 2018 - 20:12 |
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In the beginnings, out of Chaos sprang or have sprung Nuffle.
On his first day, He created MA.
On his second, ST.
On his third, AG.
On the fourth (not in July, it wasn't invented yet), AV.
On the fifth He took a break.
While he took a break, He watch the other God still at work.
The loser. |
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AunoAdam
Joined: Apr 08, 2009
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Jan 27, 2018 - 00:53 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | Force is a evaluation of your team Vs the other team
Speed, and ball handling, are described as just a measure of your own team. But this should not be taken in isolation
You need to consider the other team for both these factors, because of skills like stand firm, diving tackle, pass block (!) Tackle, sidestep, frenzy etc.
These are all control skills, and make the determination even less trivial |
All the evaluation are relative. Take humans as an example: you can be the bashing team or the agile team, depending on your opponent. Thats the full point of this consideration
In the other hand, you are right that evaluating these triangles is not trivial at all. |
Last edited by AunoAdam on %b %27, %2018 - %01:%Jan; edited 2 times in total |
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AunoAdam
Joined: Apr 08, 2009
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Jan 27, 2018 - 00:55 |
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| Sp00keh wrote: | Also, a single guy taken off the pitch or just out of range of the action, alters the calculation completely.
Such that working this out before a game, might actually be detrimental as you would need to abandon/ re evaluate it all the time |
This is a very good point and I thought about this. A single guy can make you the "speed team" and if it leaves the pitch you need to change your strategy. |
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AunoAdam
Joined: Apr 08, 2009
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Jan 27, 2018 - 00:58 |
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| keggiemckill wrote: | | There is a saying we have in comedy that may apply here; Don't take career advice from someone on par or below the level you are currently in. |
You can learn from anyone, even someone in a level that you consider lower than you. That is a very unfortunate saying, and coming from comedy, I would consider it a joke, as no one smart would take it seriously.
In the other hand if you are saying that for my FUMBBL statds, I find fascinating that you took the work of checking them. Also, I like stunty teams and play carelessly in FUMBBL most of the time. But hey, who cares? |
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AunoAdam
Joined: Apr 08, 2009
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Jan 27, 2018 - 01:02 |
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| Gozer_the_Gozerian wrote: | | Perhaps considering strength and toughness as two separate factors would be more effective, instead of 'force', thus transforming your triangle into a square. |
I thought about that, but at the end, being able to cause more damage than your opponent or to sustain it has the same result: head count advantage.
The goal of this approach is to determine if you are the bash, run or passing team of the match. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Jan 27, 2018 - 01:22 |
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The way I see it, in basic terms, is that either your team is stronger and more brutal than your opponent, in which case you want to focus on caging and causing damage, or they are faster and more agile, in which case you want to focus on playing the ball and moving it around. Sometimes, the two teams are more-or-less evenly-matched, in which case the game is mostly going to come down to turn-by-turn positional tactics to maximise 2-dice-blocks; who can minimise their dice rolls; and the luck of the dice - who rolls the most critical failures or gets lucky with a long-shot play that tips the game.
Sometimes it is relative, and Humans are a great example of that. Against Orcs/Chaos, they are not as strong, so they should focus more on playing the ball. But, against elves, they are stronger and less good at playing ball, therefore they should focus on caging and causing damage. This is one reason why new players are often recommended to start with Humans, because they will teach you to play all aspects of the game.
So, I guess I see it more as a 2-way scale, than a triangle. |
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AunoAdam
Joined: Apr 08, 2009
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Jan 27, 2018 - 01:40 |
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| JellyBelly wrote: | The way I see it, in basic terms, is that either your team is stronger and more brutal than your opponent, in which case you want to focus on caging and causing damage, or they are faster and more agile, in which case you want to focus on playing the ball and moving it around. Sometimes, the two teams are more-or-less evenly-matched, in which case the game is mostly going to come down to turn-by-turn positional tactics to maximise 2-dice-blocks; who can minimise their dice rolls; and the luck of the dice - who rolls the most critical failures or gets lucky with a long-shot play that tips the game.
Sometimes it is relative, and Humans are a great example of that. Against Orcs/Chaos, they are not as strong, so they should focus more on playing the ball. But, against elves, they are stronger and less good at playing ball, therefore they should focus on caging and causing damage. This is one reason why new players are often recommended to start with Humans, because they will teach you to play all aspects of the game.
So, I guess I see it more as a 2-way scale, than a triangle. |
Originally I thought about it the same way than you, but after playing lizardmem and elves, I felt that its not the same the hability to overun your oponent that out play it with ball handling. Hence the distinction betwen both. |
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mrt1212
Joined: Feb 26, 2013
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Jan 27, 2018 - 01:58 |
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| AunoAdam wrote: | Please, let me know your thoughts on this:
There are three aspects to consider when playing with any team:
- Force: ability to hurt opposing players and to avoid being hurt by them.
- Ball Handling: ability to move the ball around the pitch
- Speed: ability to move the players around the pitch
Each team has specific values for these aspects, although they change trough team development (i.e. a Lizardmen team that gets an skink with AG+, will increase greatly Ball Handling)
It is important before the start of each game, to determine in which aspects is your team better than the other, and adapt your play style consequently.
Determining the Aspect Triangle for each team is not trivial.
In the future, I will develop this ideas into a guide. Please feel free to share your feedback. |
To me ball handling is not very relevant. Like the profiles of teams at low TV are mostly going to resemble one another in terms of pickup probability, pass probability and catch probability with only a quarter of teams being on a 2+ for any of those rolls.
Also the ability to move the ball around the pitch only speaks to potential, not practical application of those abilities. Sure, you can do a lot of coocoo bananas stuff with elves but by and large their offenses aren't engaging in gratuitous passing as the gameplan. Yes you can utilize a game plan involving a lot of passing and hand offs but even a lot in FUMBBL terms is like 3 or 4 passes at the max and an average of 2 passes per game even if you're a passing aficionado like me.
This is just a critique within the system you are trying to build. I would love to explore alternative ideas but will refrain because I'm afraid of crapping up the thread with my own pet theories.
Edit: Also a straight up measure of team agility would be more informative than ball handling. |
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JellyBelly
Joined: Jul 08, 2009
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Jan 27, 2018 - 02:42 |
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@AunoAdam: but, whether they're running the ball or passing it, it achieves the same thing: keeping the ball safe from the opponent by moving it around and making the opponent chase it. As opposed to bunkering down in a cage and trying to out-bash the opposition.
Another thing to bear in mind is that, even for elves, passing the ball is not a plan A strategy. Elves should run the ball as much as possible, as it is less risky. Passing should be reserved for situations where they are down on players, or when they want to score a 2-turn TD.
Basically, it's fairly simple: either you're stronger than your opponent, in which case you camp out and beat them until their pixels stop moving, or you're not, in which case you play the ball, because you haven't got any other choice  |
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